Working inside a box...

[KeithTurk]

I just got through reading 5 pages of minutia over in the Exhaust thread and it got me to thinking about the over all concept of working within a set of rules or within a structure vs the free wheeling type of car building that most of us are doing.

How much of what we do in fabrication on stuff like Headers is urban legend or simply the way it's always been done and is acceptable... What is currently pretty or often simply not offensive...

I desperately want to say that I don't like working in boxes or within a set of rules or structure... but the reality is that I truly do enjoy racing people who have the same goal within a set of rules...

What do you guys think?

K

[bowtiemonster]

Re: Working inside a box...

It takes a unique person to stretch the rule, and to think out of the box. Kind of like Smokey. If they are not challenge then it is no good in having rules.

[blu65ramb]

Re: Working inside a box...

During car building I think that there are rules that must be followed.. basic stuff or your in deep do do!!! My experience on topics like performance, that can't be absolutely proven through testing, you know works on one application but not on another, you will always find differences of opinion. Most of us will form their own. If it works for you thats good enough. I really appreciate people with imagination and ideas, the kind that makes us all say "Why didn't I think of that" I personally prefer to work outside the box---dare to be different---

[milner351]

Re: Working inside a box...

I think most of us make our own rules unless we are building a vehicle to "spec race".

Sounds like there are lots of classes and rules in just about any form of motor sport.

Building a car that blows the imagination like that pontiac on the cover in the '80's that pretty much started the prostreet craze and the 'neon tube' paint stripe craze, and many other cars that were built by people with huge abilities - imagination - and NO concern for getting the money out of the car they put into it.

Building a car and restoring a car are two entirely different things.

I will restore the mach1 - simply because I think I'm a fool to do it any other way - as it's worth a lot restored - even anywhere close to original. But I won't go concourse crazy - I'm not that wealthy or patient.

Building a car that is your own vision from scratch is a lot more fun - as you are making the rules - not having to research what's 'correct' and build to that.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: Working inside a box...

I haven't applied it to my cars, but in general I like to think outside the box then see how effectively I can cram those thoughts into the box. Basically pushing the limits(luck?) with rules or with what I have. Another example I like are people who race 500cc motorcycles, sure if you want to go faster it's easier to go bigger or power adder, but it's often funner to just push the limits of a 500cc bike ;D

[BBR]

Re: Working inside a box...

If sticking a stroker BB in a little truck isn't out of the box, well, I'm not sure what it is then. ;D ;D

I think I am happy building it the way I want it built for the most part. We all have to do certain things of course so they are legal to race.

This thread makes me think of all poor suckers out there that think they have to have h beams/forged pistons/crank/4bolt main in their 8.2:1 compression daily driver 77 Caprice. How many parts do people use that are overkill for the application just to say they have them?

;)

[milner351]

Re: Working inside a box...

NO KIDDING!

I built a 351W with a friend for a fox body drag car.

STOCK CRANK, RODS, BLOCK, wiseco forged pistons, wolrd IRON heads,
good cam intake carb distributor headers.

and a C4 with a brake - off the shelf rear suspension parts - 90/10's in front..... gutted interior.

that car went 10.50's over and over and over for two seasons!
he didn't tear it down the winter between those seasons either!

[KeithTurk]

Re: Working inside a box...

One of the advantages of staying with convention is you know the results up front... and can't expect to be much better then them.... You aren't going to win Engine masters with one of those combinations... but it should always be rock solid and safe...

Hmmm But I'm really a non conformist...

Sorta

K

[JeffMcKC]

Re: Working inside a box...

I understand what you are saying. My Drag Week motor is a lot out of the box, I heard a lot of that won't make it, and that won't work. Ok the intake I made did not work but am building a new one again. I am still not happy with the cam, and am trying #4, maybe this time I will go to a Dyno.

This is why its fun and everyones cars dont tie at the end!

[SpeedZealot]

Re: Working inside a box...

I'm currently contemplating a 363cu in BBC with turbos. Some cheap Iron heads with titanium valve train, and make it sing. Think about a 4.25 bore and a 3.2 stroke. And say around 25lbs of boost....

I am still trying to sneek my way into back door purchasing the old sb2.2 top end and block, seeing as the rotating assembly is gone. Then I'll just do it with a small block cause the heads flow almost the same

[JeffMcKC]

Re: Working inside a box...

But if your using a "GM" Regular Block not Bowtie the cam selection is not as good as you will have with that big block. the lobes will hit the bearings and the ramp is wayyyyyyyy better on a big block. Even under pressure the big block head leaves a lot better ways to go. Weight is the only draw back I can see.

[joe_rocket45]

Re: Working inside a box...

Ok the intake I made did not work but am building a new one again.

right on. air flow is a funny thing. Take the picture below for example. in my mind the port on the right should flow better, but according to the sim the port on the left flows better. Although you can't see it I added a blocker at the bottom so all the air had to travel through another port on the right side near the bottom, the air still choose to use the left port. I then tried to open the breather on the right side a little with no effect.

please don't pick the art work, k..just examine the results. note how the air not only choose the left port, but it had to travel almost twice the distance to reach the (unseen) port in the lower right.





Here I separated the two sides to give a better view an comparison on flow. I can't quite see why the air choose the path it did? Keep in mind this was with one image that I split in MSpaint, so all the setting are identical. The difference in flow is astounding.





The program I used is here, it maybe at fault but I don't really think so. It was either the air or the operator. ???

http://www.bfg.uni-freiburg.de/Projects/dlb/SubgridLB_html

[Eric68]

Re: Working inside a box...

I am all for thinking out of the box . . . but at this stage of motorsports there is not a lot that hasn't already been tried. I don't mean that there aren't any more new ideas that will take racing in a new direction or even revolutionize the sport, but things like exhaust have been scienced out adnauseum.

The article was interesting but the "out of the box" exhaust log set up was still off on power by 14 HP across the board. That may not sound like a lot but 14 HP in a highly competitive field is the difference between 1st place and 10th place.

Now if you want to explore an area that hasn't been developed to death, look into alternative fuels for racing. I have been playing with E85 for a full season now and you would be amazed at how little information was out there this spring and how much more information is out there now.

I understand what you are saying though Keith, out of the box is cool, even if it doesn't always go faster! (and that's coming from a guy who drives a red Camaro LOL)

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: Working inside a box...

Now if you want to explore an area that hasn't been developed to death, look into alternative fuels for racing. I have been playing with E85 for a full season now and you would be amazed at how little information was out there this spring and how much more information is out there now.

I understand what you are saying though Keith, out of the box is cool, even if it doesn't always go faster! (and that's coming from a guy who drives a red Camaro LOL)

After seeing Mythbuster's run a carb'd engine by simply blowing hydrogen from a hose above the carburetor I've wondered if a Multiport Hydrogen Fuel Injection system could be made so a conventional piston engine (read especially old engines) could be converted to a Hydrogen fuel with just a top end/intake replacement...... Wonder if with a dual injector system one for gasoline and one for hydrogen could be designed to keep it versatile enough to keep from getting stranded......


(*Camaro needs to be added to the Spell Check list of words, I mean Camry is definately not an acceptable replacement word :o )

[milkovich]

Re: Working inside a box...

That Audi R10 Diesel is/was pretty out of the box.

I hate that many times sanctioning bodies are the ones holding everyone back. Nascar and Prostock run carbs to keep costs down?"

It seems like Diesels are the wild west right now.

Personally, I don't have the money to mess around with the neat stuff so I keep tinkering with crap I find laying around and am content just to make it run... loud (but I sure admire guys that are out there being creative vs. expending massive resources for incremental gains)