Pure Oxygen injection as opposed to Nitrous Oxide?

[BKBridges]

DG,
Id play as well, but on their dime! Just dont get casual with anything dealing with LOX. Without mentioning any names I know a real smart Phd guy that spent a few months in the burn ward after a little experiment. He does a lot of big brained science, and is normally very safe...but LOX can be cruel.
I designed valves and manifolding for adult volume ventilators for 13 years (delivers a finely tuned mixture of air and O2 up to 100% O2) and had to deal with a lot of system and controls requirements for O2 safety so I am a bit paranoid, but I do believe that if things are "thought out" safety is possible Oh and this: Always keep the cameras rolling during a test (everyone likes a good explosion on film)!
BKB

[dieselgeek]

DG,
Id play as well, but on their dime! Just dont get casual with anything dealing with LOX. Without mentioning any names I know a real smart Phd guy that spent a few months in the burn ward after a little experiment. He does a lot of big brained science, and is normally very safe...but LOX can be cruel.
I designed valves and manifolding for adult volume ventilators for 13 years (delivers a finely tuned mixture of air and O2 up to 100% O2) and had to deal with a lot of system and controls requirements for O2 safety so I am a bit paranoid, but I do believe that if things are "thought out" safety is possible Oh and this: Always keep the cameras rolling during a test (everyone likes a good explosion on film)!
BKB

I will bring my camera for sure.

I'm not even sure why these guys area asking me to be there but I will certainly make sure I am careful, and make sure these guys are safely handling the LOX.

Speaking of which, is it any safer to use 100% pure Gaseous Oxygen? similar handling concerns? or is it considered safer?

[65longroof]

Gaseous O2 has the same hazards as liquid, except that the liquid can expand at a ridiculous rate when it vaporizes, like 860:1. An example would be that one liter of liquid O2 would expand to 860 liters of gas at room temperature. For this reason, liquid oxygen should NEVER be trapped in a closed system without some kind of relief valve.

For your own awareness, check out this paper, it's worth a read and will open your eyes up to the dangers involved:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/canceled/1740151.pdf

Even the first few pages will give a good idea as to how careful you need to be.

I agree with BKBridges, even the most intelligent people can get into serious trouble if they're unfamiliar with oxygen handling safety and materials compatibility.

[BKBridges]

State change is a b+tch, making LOX tough to handle (not to mention COLD: Frozen valves, icing due to atmospheric H2O, seized valves due to differential expansion rates, stuck poppets etc or worse yet phase change in the wrong places..(boom).
Gaseous under 250psi isnt too bad to deal with as long as you know what the impact energy in the control system is (valves, regulators, etc.) and things are super clean...and the materials of construction dont look like fuel. I have seen high pressure regulators deflagrate on an oxygen cylinder (destructive testing) due to a small amount of oil (one drop) in the primary regulator poppet when the tank's valve was remotely opened... After that I was always a bit leary of turning hp O2 tank valves on, even on my welding tanks. POSD. Now I MIG
BKB

[dieselgeek]

Gaseous O2 has the same hazards as liquid, except that the liquid can expand at a ridiculous rate when it vaporizes, like 860:1. An example would be that one liter of liquid O2 would expand to 860 liters of gas at room temperature. For this reason, liquid oxygen should NEVER be trapped in a closed system without some kind of relief valve.

For your own awareness, check out this paper, it's worth a read and will open your eyes up to the dangers involved:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/canceled/1740151.pdf

Even the first few pages will give a good idea as to how careful you need to be.

I agree with BKBridges, even the most intelligent people can get into serious trouble if they're unfamiliar with oxygen handling safety and materials compatibility.

Spent a little time going through 2-1 (handling) - NASA does an excellent job explaining why this is not good stuff to use in an automotive environment.

I'm just there to observe and comment :-)

Thanks for the link !

[JeffMcKC]

I am but a simple man with simple ways, to me it sounds a lot like a cutting torch. LOL

I would love to be a fly on the wall.

[BBR]

Dang LOX is some nasty stuff. An internal combustion engine with all it moving parts does not seem like a suitable environment for LOX. Impact ignition..... Float the valves once and obliterate the front of your car!

[milner351]

that's why the guys that refill tanks for welders and cutting torches hate oil....... most regulators say "NO OIL" on them some place.

I hope it's gaseous they are planning on using.

as volatile as LOX is I assumed civilians couldn't get a hold of the stuff.

[Bob Holmes]

I think all of us are intrigued by what you're about to do.

Take pictures, stay safe, report back.

[dieselgeek]

I hope it's gaseous they are planning on using.

From reading the NASA paper, Gaseous Oxygen is just as bad as LOX minus issues associated with rapid expansion. I'm presuming that this system is based on LOX only because I noticed all the system inputs - cylinder gas temp, cylinder gas pressure - usually those are reserved for liquid fuels, as the temp and pressure become important in correctly calculating the mass of fuel delivered to the engine (think liquid versus gaseous propane). That and they're using *extremely* high pressure-capable injectors. I won't know for sure until I talk some more with the guys trying this out. The schematic I've seen includes a computer-controlled valve that closes the oxygen supply under a broad variety of potential problems... AFR, EGT, Metered Mass Airflow - if any of those exceed a certain range, oxygen is shut down.

My gut tells me they'll have distribution problems. They're spraying under the carb which is great if you're using one of those pretends-to-be-EFI systems, but in my experience is an invitation to distribution issues on an engine making any real power.

[65longroof]

From reading the NASA paper, Gaseous Oxygen is just as bad as LOX minus issues associated with rapid expansion. I'm presuming that this system is based on LOX only because I noticed all the system inputs - cylinder gas temp, cylinder gas pressure - usually those are reserved for liquid fuels, as the temp and pressure become important in correctly calculating the mass of fuel delivered to the engine (think liquid versus gaseous propane). That and they're using *extremely* high pressure-capable injectors. I won't know for sure until I talk some more with the guys trying this out. The schematic I've seen includes a computer-controlled valve that closes the oxygen supply under a broad variety of potential problems... AFR, EGT, Metered Mass Airflow - if any of those exceed a certain range, oxygen is shut down.

My gut tells me they'll have distribution problems. They're spraying under the carb which is great if you're using one of those pretends-to-be-EFI systems, but in my experience is an invitation to distribution issues on an engine making any real power.

You are correct that gaseous is just as bad as liquid. Add on that you can get cryo burns with liquid (cryogenic) O2. If they are using liquid, delivery will definitely be an issue unless they are using vacuum insulated lines and cryo specific components. Liq. Ox is VERY cold and will start to vaporize in the lines until they get to liquid temperature. This will cause a rapid rise in pressures in the line(s) with potentially catastrophic results.

I'm glad that we could open up some eyes to see that this isn't really backyard type stuff to play with. Hopefully the guys you are working with are fully aware of this and are taking necessary precautions. If not, don't be afraid to step in and make them think twice about what they're doing.

[BKBridges]

Its sending shivers up my spine...
We used to test our LOX pumps with liquid Nitrogen in the shop before we went out to Edwards AFB to blow stuff up Uh I mean launch and or run a motor. In fact, the first stage DARPA contract for the pump was to just pump liquid nitrogen, which turned out to be a real challenge. Its a good way to chill the system to operating temp and see if you dont blow a fuel rail or manifold off without the all consuming fireball. Nothing worse than seeing your engineering dollars barbequing from 100 feet away...been there. Then again, its not your $$
BKB
added a pic of the atlas thruster actually working properly on the gimbaling test stand...it blew up later on.

[TC]

My gut tells me your going to get to witness the first throttle body to make orbit..........

[BigBlockMopar]

Dunno what to say other than make sure Chad is not in the vicinity.
The US doesn't need another Meteor Crater I would think...

[BKBridges]

A skylight in the dyno cell may be appropriate.
I dug up a couple of pics of what things look like when it goes bad (rocket style)
BKB