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Pure Oxygen injection as opposed to Nitrous Oxide?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by dieselgeek View Post
    I am being asked to "attempt" to tune a custom controller some guys built for Oxygen Injection as an alternative to Nitrous Oxide.

    The only thing I could find worth reading was the claim that the Germans tried this in WW2 and found Nitrous Oxide to be a lot easier to use/tune/etc without blowing up the engine.

    Anyone else know of any other guys who have tried this?
    Try Google, plenty of people have tried it over the years, especially the drag racers.
    The results have never been good.

    Even slight oxygen enrichment massively accelerates combustion.
    The genius scientists and engineers at NASA (that should have known better) decided to add extra oxygen to the life support system aboard Apollo 1.
    That little mistake caused a sudden flash fire in the command module that incinerated the crew in seconds.

    As an engine tuner, I hope it is clearly understood that if you burn down a few engines testing this fantastic new power producing idea, you will in no way be held responsible for the resulting wreckage.

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    • #47
      Okay, time to update this thread, my Facebook friends already know that I spent all day yesterday, and this morning a few hours, testing out a running engine in a bracket car running the GASEOUS (my mistake - not liquid) Oxygen injection.

      Now, we used a controller which was quite a bit more advanced than any progressive nitrous controller, my job was to evaluate its performance and ability to control the mix.

      And the results???


      it acts exactly like nitrous. We took a 550hp SBC (carbureted), added a supplemental fuel system using EFI injectors, and specific gas injectors at a regulated 100psi (maybe they were for a propane system?? high impedance). The controller uses a Mass Airflow Sensor to measure incoming atmospheric air, and enriches it such that a "3% enrichment" gives you 24% oxygen in your incoming air charge as opposed to the usual 21-22%. That should turn out to be around a 90hp increase in power. The secondary MAF measures O2 flow and the computer compensated with a corresponding fuel enrichment based on a target AFR table. Simple stuff, as far as EFI goes. I only had to scale the MAF table to get my AFRs in line.

      Our testing was using a private eighth mile track, mostly we just ran it to the 330. The 90hp shot picked up good mph in the 330'. We took it all the way up to about a 160hp boost this morning, or 6% total enrichment.

      And the results?

      Car went faster and ran just like it was on a 160hp shot of Nitrous. It wanted timing pulled, starting around the 100hp mark. There was no drama. Engine "sounded" super happy, traction was a problem after the 160hp shot and I had some concerns about fuel and O2 delivery based on data I was recording, so we stopped there. We agreed to make some changes and we're going to try it out on a later model LS engine next.

      We also played with the gas oxygen, which was "medical grade." I blew it on a lit cigarette and - the cigarette blew out. are you guys sure this stuff is any more dangerous than nitrous oxide? There seemed to be a lot of people here TOTALLY SURE that I was goiing to blow shit up, and NONE of that happened. My only observation is that I don't see anyone being able to control the tune with a system that's like what you see in typical Nitrous applications at this power level... I think our customized controller helped us make it controllable. But I was amazed that we didn't launch anything into the atmosphere. I got it a little lean before I had the MAF scaled properly, I used a regular wideband O2 sensor (LC1) to monitor and adjust AFRs.

      Anyways, bottom line, I learned a lesson today. Leave no stones unturned because what you hear/read on the internet is often people telling you all about how it won't work, without them bothering to try it out.

      I'll let you all know how it progresses from here in the next few months,

      -Scott
      Last edited by dieselgeek; April 15, 2012, 01:00 PM.
      www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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      • #48
        Good job to all involved, I thought it would just turn into a cutting torch but the smaller amounts used maybe where I was not thinking. Very cool stuff I enjoyed getting the info all weekend Scott. Cutting edge stuff, control is name of the game.
        2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
        First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
        2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
        2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

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        • #49
          Nice to see things worked out........And nice to see that the majority isn't always right.........

          And most of all, even though we but heads at times, I'm glad you didn't get hurt...........

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          • #50
            Liquid vs Gas was the biggest warning for you Scott - we were worried about you thinking you were going to be messing with LOX.

            I'm naive to NOS in general - but I thought it was just a stable carrier of additional oxygen, the nitrogen is just along for the ride, so essentially you were doing the same thing without the "fillers".

            Nice work indeed.
            There's always something new to learn.

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            • #51
              Nice job.

              Conventional wisdom takes a beating again. I thought you were going to be on the wrong end of an expensive torch.
              I'm still learning

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              • #52
                Glad to hear everything is staying together so far. Gas O2 is much easier to control than the liquid phase, good idea to ramp it up slowly. Keep safety in mind as you get into richer O2 atmospheres. Be safe and keep us posted!!

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by 65longroof View Post
                  Glad to hear everything is staying together so far. Gas O2 is much easier to control than the liquid phase, good idea to ramp it up slowly. Keep safety in mind as you get into richer O2 atmospheres. Be safe and keep us posted!!

                  Thanks, I definitely enjoyed reading the advice and links people put up here, it's nice to know that people still care somewhere :-)

                  Meanwhile, we only need 100psi to feed our injectors. We made 14 passes on the O2 and couldn't tell by weighing our relatively small bottle, that we'd used any O2 at all.

                  So I can't talk a lot how the system works but, it's being developed around a patent that General Electric owns. The first place you may see this in production in a few years is not likely to be an automotive application, rather as a "thermal efficiency improvement" on locomotive diesels.

                  The race car application was more of a "what is a fun way we can test out a control system" (company president is a serious hotrodder) - the REAL technology is the small, lightweight and efficient scrubbing/purifying/compression system that collects medical grade O2 from atmosphere. The car we tested generates it's own O2 supply using some very trick, uber-secret system that these guys have been improving upon for years.

                  Free Poweradder, if you will.

                  I told them hotrodders might be seriously interested in it. They don't think there's much of a market there, not compared to the bucks that could be made with larger engines that can benefit from improved thermal efficiency (that's the term that was thrown around A LOT this weekend).
                  www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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                  • #54
                    awsum concept.
                    " the REAL technology is the small, lightweight and efficient scrubbing/purifying/compression system that collects medical grade O2 from atmosphere. The car we tested generates it's own O2 supply using some very trick, uber-secret system"

                    tease........ dang, c'mon now - inquiring minds wanna know. how's 'bout giving up the catalyst for that ? and i got this feeling we won't... good thread. thanks 4 sharin'.

                    i'll be searching LexPat for clues.
                    Last edited by oldsman496; April 15, 2012, 06:51 PM.
                    Mike in Southwest Ohio

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by oldsman496 View Post
                      awsum concept.
                      " the REAL technology is the small, lightweight and efficient scrubbing/purifying/compression system that collects medical grade O2 from atmosphere. The car we tested generates it's own O2 supply using some very trick, uber-secret system"

                      tease........ dang, c'mon now - inquiring minds wanna know. how's 'bout giving up the catalyst for that ? and i got this feeling we won't... good thread. thanks 4 sharin'.

                      i'll be searching LexPat for clues.
                      Sounds like a medical oxygen concentrator... that's actually part of my line of work, I work for an industrial gas co. in the adsorption research dept. In other words, we separate air into it's gaseous components using different materials and processes. A concentrator usually uses a zeolite, not a catalyst (and I won't give away the actual material so I can save my job! lol).

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by 65longroof View Post
                        Sounds like a medical oxygen concentrator... that's actually part of my line of work, I work for an industrial gas co. in the adsorption research dept. In other words, we separate air into it's gaseous components using different materials and processes. A concentrator usually uses a zeolite, not a catalyst (and I won't give away the actual material so I can save my job! lol).
                        designer zeolites are worth their weight in gold... so to speak. chemistry is fascinating. Using the term catalyst like i did was obviously wrong...they would be 'filtering' out the oxygen, not converting another substance.... oops.
                        Mike in Southwest Ohio

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                        • #57
                          How did I miss this, it's totally awesome!
                          I really have nothing to add except I love it when I see someone doing something that people say can't be done. You are really stepping into uncharted territory though.
                          Originally posted by TC
                          also boost will make the cam act smaller

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                          • #58
                            I wonder how much energy the oxygen separator uses?
                            My fabulous web page

                            "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by squirrel View Post
                              I wonder how much energy the oxygen separator uses?
                              Is it electrical? so it would just be the draw on the alternator?
                              Originally posted by TC
                              also boost will make the cam act smaller

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                              • #60
                                I am thinking the Diesel will love it!
                                2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
                                First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
                                2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
                                2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

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