Need Diesel Tech

[DanStokes]

I'm pretty sharp on the stock Diesel stuff but a little light on the modified tech.

Here's the deal:

My bone stock (as far as I can tell) '02 Dodge was good for 107 at the new Ohio Mile. I have the lowering kit and a tonneau here at the house and these projects are underway.

The speed limiter was supposed to be set to 95 but either mine happens to be at the top end of the factory tolerance or the truck had some sort of tuner at one point in it's life. At any rate I'm thinking of a tuner/instrument package.

First of all, I can't break 135 MPH. More than that and I'll need a 'cage and that's not in line with the eventual purpose of the truck (basically, a trailer hauler).

What I've learned so far:
1) Bully Dog no longer offers a tuner for this truck.
2) Smarty has a tuner but it doesn't protect the trans.
3) Edge seems to be the best deal, technically. It has 5 tuning levels (I think) and I suspect plenty of HP to carry me down the track at 135. It also definitely bypasses the speed governor. They also roll back the HP just before the shift (auto trans) to protect the trans, which is the weak link on this truck.

So two questions on the Edge:
1) Are they any good? Are there some problem(s) that Edge users have that I don't know about?
2) I found a steal of a deal on it from <jeep/truckparts.com> but they were unrated on Amazon. A bit worrisome. Anyone know anything about them? They have it at $634, which is WAY less than anyone else.

I appreciate whatever help you guys have.

Dan

[Deaf Bob]

Bigger cat back kits do liven the diesels up..
Son has Ford F-350 7.3 crew cab dualie with auto and a chip with 5 settings (don't know where it is set yet)
His buddy has E-450 with same package except 100%stock including the exhaust..
Climbing over the "pass" we were in 4th at 55 mph
His Buddy was in 2nd, screaming at same mph ..
Different buddy has F-350 4X4. With all the aftermarket hop ups and dash mounted switch to change settings and he smokes his rear holding the brakes...


My buddy has F-350 dualie 4X4 with same package but only a one stage chip and 5 speed.. He says got more mpg and better driveability with that small chip and cat back system..

[dieselgeek]

I wouldn't even consider putting a tuner box on your engine unless you are ready for some expensive consequences. If this is going to be a full time race truck, then fine - get yourself on a CUmmins-specific forum (because tricks for Fords don't work) and start working on the buildup.

I would suggest higher output injectors as your first upgrade, however. Then figure out the maximum boost you can run on your stock turbo before diminishing returns kick in, keep an eye on EGTs, and prepare to go through a couple injector pumps if you want to run the tuner electronics.

[TC]

I wouldn't even consider putting a tuner box on your engine unless you are ready for some expensive consequences. If this is going to be a full time race truck, then fine - get yourself on a CUmmins-specific forum (because tricks for Fords don't work) and start working on the buildup.

I would suggest higher output injectors as your first upgrade, however. Then figure out the maximum boost you can run on your stock turbo before diminishing returns kick in, keep an eye on EGTs, and prepare to go through a couple injector pumps if you want to run the tuner electronics.

I know all sorts of guys running programmers on their diesel trucks(ford, chevy and dodge), they say biggest thing is to upgrade the exhaust system, EGT's are key, so a good EGT gauge is a good idea......There is one thing all of them say and that is on the lower settings they get way better gas mileage than with the stock tune...... I'll give my friend Greg a call, he used to work for a Diesel Performance shop, he knows all about this stuff........

[JOES66FURY]

a friend is running a bunch of mods on his 02, bigger turbo, tuner, injectors, exhaust and all sorts of other goodies. He picked it up as a project from a guy who was building it as a pull truck....he has nothing but problems, most recntly the stock head bolts gave up and blew a head gasket. The thing runs like a screaming raped ape tho.

I remeber Bully Dog being the go-to for the Ram guys out here...I am supprised they dont offer a kit anymore. I have heard of guys using the Edge but have no solid feedback to say one way or the other.

[DanStokes]

Thanks all for the input. The Edge I'm considering has a full gage set-up that comes with it so it's supposed to tell you everything the computer knows. I'm thinking I'll need to weld in a bung for EGT and install a sensor because I don't think the computer monitors EGT.

TC - thanks for calling your buddy. Nothing like day-to-day experience! Remember, my performance goals are pretty modest and I don't need tons of black smoke to make me happy. I need to do the calculations so I can figure out current rear wheel HP and calculate how much HP to make 135 but I don't think I need to add more than 150 at the most. I'm hoping the frontal area is on line somewhere but I haven't gone hunting for it yet.

Dan

[TC]

Ok talked with my buddy Greg, basically he said without getting crazy the 3 things he recommends is a larger exhaust system(turbo back), a fresh air intake and an Edge Programmer, he said you can get The Edge with or without "attitude", either will work......He also recommends like I said an EGT guage........

He also said BullyDog's customer service sucks........

Also next time my friend Guy is in town I'll take some pics of his Dodge truck, it's one like DG was describing, bigger turbo, bigger injectors, larger head studs, intercooler the size of Cleveland..........I'd have to ask him again, but I think he said something like 700hp and 1400ft/lb of torque.............

[DanStokes]

Great input, TC. "Attitude" is the gage system that works with the programmer. Like I said, it's supposed to monitor everything that the 'puter can read. I don't know if it has a channel for EGT but it would be cool to have all that in one package. EGT is a must for sure.

I know I could go crazy with bigger injectors, more boost, etc. but I really can only use just a tad more HP and pass tech. I have NO interest in getting booted from the track! 135 MPH is IT (maybe a little wiggle room but not much).

Dan

[dieselgeek]

Seems strange that an ISB Cummins guy would recommend an exhaust upgrade as a first move. On our models (mine's the same as Dan's) it's been shown that the current downpipe and rest of the system is good to 600+hp or more...

[Barry Donovan]

did you check banks power?

they do some simple stuff.

[DanStokes]

Barry - I haven't yet but that's a good suggestion.

Scott - that's what the Edge guy told me, too, so it's not on my immediate list. Besides, we'll be cruising the US with this rig over the summer so I don't want a racket for thousands of miles.

BTW - I got 19.7 (by the onboard gage) MPG on this trip, including cruising around town and my top speed run. Also a LOT of idle during the meet as PW and I worked to stay warm. I'm REALLY happy with that.

Slight correction on the vendor. It's:
4X4Jeep/TruckParts.com and they came up on a Google search. I just don't want to send off my credit card info and get nothing. If they actually send the controller it'll be just fine.

Max power from the Edge module is +125 (according to their literature), which should do me just fine.

Dan

[Deaf Bob]

Got a question.... Everybody talks about EGT... How high is too high and what is "normal safe operating temps?"

[DanStokes]

Great question, Bob! I was hoping the monitor would come with that info.

We monitored it on the dyno but it never hit the alarm value (set by the engineers) so it's fallen out of my noggin in the ensuing years.

Dan

[Beagle]

I have usually heard keep it under 1100 - here's what the Cummins guys said to another guy on this forum, who's sister is dating a rock start who's dog groomer knows another guy who's in my kid's taekwondo class... okay, I binged it.

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/egt-response-cummins-t144256p3.html

Under full load, most Cummins engines produce exhaust temperatures in
the cylinder about 1300 degF or so, on the engine dynamometer. In the
Dodge Ram application, it is not likely the engine could be ran at 'full
load' operation in the chassis but if it could (or if overfueled), the
exhaust EGT ahead of the turbocharger should not exceed the 900 to 1100
degF range. The exact temperature will vary on different applications
with different pyrometers and the location of the temperature probe.

The pyrometer measures exhaust temperature and the probe is usually
mounted about 2 to 6 inches from the turbo outlet (after the turbo) and in
that area the exhaust temperature under 'full load' conditions should
be in the 700 to 900 degF range. The pyrometer probe could be installed
ahead of the turbo for maximum exhaust temperature out of the cylinders
(900 to 1100 degF), however, if the probe ever fails, it goes directly
into the turbocharger and will likely cause a catastrophic failure of
the turbocharger, plus additional engine damage.

Operation and maintenance will determine which expected engine life.
Adding too much "heat" without letting the engine breathe or reject it at
lower RPM is called "lugging." Engines with standard ratings and
operated in "severe duty" applications cannot expect to achieve more than
60% of the durability life-to-overhaul of engines that are run at more
modest output levels.

For the best fuel mileage, reliability and durability, Cummins engines
should be operated between peak torque and rated speed. Do not lug the
engine when running in that RPM range. What is "lugging"? Lugging the
engine is when, at cruising speed, the engine is accelerated and it will
not increase the vehicle speed. Also, lugging is operating the engine,
under full load, below peak torque rpm....."

Dan, I think your aero will give you the biggest bang for your buck on the track. My truck junk responded very well to a tonneau even though it added a hundred pounds or so. Lower it.. no, lower... lower... scraping? That's about right.

On the exhaust, my 2488 special came with straight pipe from the turbo back to the right rear (stock location) and I think it's all 3" or so. It's a Powerstroke though, so you can hear the engine and turbo whine over the exhaust at idle. I'm not sure it's not knocking, but how can you tell with a ratty old diesel? Ah, the point.. you can't hear the exhaust or the engine all that much at 70. It's quieter than the other truck's 351 with dual Flowbastid ripoffs dumped right after the axle. It's actually very quiet when it's at cruising speed.

Smoke is old school thinking from what I can tell. You don't have to make smoke to go fast.

[DanStokes]

Thanks Beags! Great info - and now I know where to find it when I forget it next time.

I'll only be lowering it 3" in front and 4" in the rear as that what the BellTech kit yields. I'd like more in the rear but that's what they have. I didn't want to get into an engineering deal so I went with a kit and I know I can trust BellTech. No one makes dropped spindles for mine (it's a 3/4 ton) so about all you can do is springs and shorter shocks. I could do a flip kit in the rear but Bell offers a shackle relocation kit with the right wedge so I'll go with that. Planning to do the installation on Monday.

I got a BakFlip hard tonneau. Evidently my box is a bit off as it was a PITA to actually get the cover into the bed rail tracks. Fiddlin' here and there and it's in place.

Dan