Early Mustang Suspension

[cantvalve16]

Oh, and keep it coming.

What is recommended to get rid of the dead spot in the steering? What are your experiences with Flaming River boxes or quality rebuilt boxes?

[Loren]

Yeah I'd like to know the same thing. Particularly as we kept the stock steering wheel for the sake of style instead of going to something of a smaller diameter, the loose/slowww steering was beyond workable. Going through the p/s, which is the old-style deal on the drag link and not in the box, didn't help. Corvettes used that-type system through '82 and I'd wondered about adapting in a unit. I may yet check into that someday.

Once, driving in the mountains, we let a freind of Gail's drive for awhile...it was time to turn around and she just did a slow u-turn on the highway. She turned the steering wheel more, and more...and a little more, to make the turn until we were headed back the opposite direction. Then, like she was used to in her Subaru, just turned the wheel back one turn toward straight and stepped on it! Trouble was, it needed another whole bunch of turning before it would've actually been centered again. Crap, we shot off into the far lane and about hit the rocks. I was the only one in the car laughing...as I could relate to what was happening...everybody else incl. the driver freaked.

[milner351]

This is fantastic - this is the type of stuff I need to print out and put in a three ring binder - thanks guys!

I've read a few articles over the years about "blue printing" the stock steering box - but I always ended up with the impression that unless it's a pure stock restoration - a rack and pinion conversion made a lot of sense.

I know the M2 set up has it's draw backs, I'm sure I'll have some complaints after getting the falcon on the road.

[BKBridges]

Loren and Huskinhano,
Thanks for the details! I will study them more this weekend. Im doing a 68 cougar but it looks pretty much the same. Ive got the heavy "export" reinforcement as well as a reinforced lower cross member and I welded in the tower reinforcements. I helped lower a 68 mustang in High School (long ago) but we never did the upper a arm mods. It seems like I need to rake back the upper ball joint about 5 degrees? Ive got a Bender alignment system to check things out on. Ill look into the new steering boxes out there as Ive been passenger in car when the stocker failed and it wasnt pretty.
BKB

[Huskinhano]

Do you have PS? I think that dead spot is a combination of things. With the PS, you have the slave cylinder and control valve. In the control valve, you have seats on either side of the ball stud that have springs beneath them. As you turn the wheel in either direction and apply pressure against the seats, the spring compresses to allow the hydraulic circuit to direct fluid to the slave cylinder, you never had a solid mechanical connection between the box and drag link. I believe this creates that disconnected feel dead on and why you seem to have yaw and always making corrections. Throw in next to no caster to keep the wheels straight too. I suspect with a e few degrees of cast, like 3* this would help a lot. I completely removed my PS and have no regrets.

The difference between a 16:1 PS box and the 16:1 fast ratio manual box is the preload on the box and nothing else. One advantage of taking the PS stuff off is the box will be like brand new since it wasn't doing the dirty work. A lot of guys also install a roller bearing kit on the idler arm in place of the rubber bushing. With all of these bushings replacing the bearings a lot of guys say the car rides much smoother since he rubber bushings aren't there to add artificial spring rate. It allows the suspension to work soothly and do it's job.

Something else to ponder, spindles. Since not a lot of early Mustangs came with disk brakes and back in the 80's there weren't too many disc brake kits other then the Stainless Steel's expensive reproduction of the KH factory set up, a lot of Granada systems were installed since a lot of Granada's were hitting the bone yard. It was a cheap way to install disc brakes. But on 65-66 Mustangs it could cause some issues if a lot of other mods were done. The off set of the tie rod arm is not as great as the 65-66 but is the same as 67 & up. This cause a lot of bump steer issues on 65-66 cars with altered UCA locations. From what I can tell from reading posts in the past it's not so much an issue with the 1" drop and stiffer springs but more then 1" such as the 1.75" drop with wedge kits, hit cause a lot of problems. I know for a fact it will make the car un drivable if you use Global West UCA and I suspect the Street or Track UCA that I used since both arms are shorter then factory arms some where about 1/4". There was a member on VMF who had to take his Granada spindles off and replace them with stock spindles on his 66. What was happening was as he accelerated and the front end lifted, the wheels would toe in and stay they keeping the front end up and making driving spooky. You can correct this buy using a bump steer kit which replaces the outer tie rod with a rod end, stud and spacers. Luckily there are lots of disc brake kits now! There is even a reproduction of the Granada spindle and brake with the correct tie rod off set. But I think there are much better set ups. The Granada visually looks like the late 67 to 73 Mustang single piston caliper brake except the rotor is smaller. The 67 to 73 rotor is 11.25" while the Granad is 10.875".

My old buddy who use to road are his 66 fast back as well as Shaun from owns Street or Track will tell you there drag link system now steers like a R&P with no slop. If you go on www.vintage-mustang.com search for "applejack" another guy who knows his stuff. He's an engineer from GM. He has made a chart showing measured bump steer with different spindles and corrections. Oh yeah, I did look into using rod ends in place of tie rods as far as durability and if anything the rod ends way out last tie rods.

[cantvalve16]

Husk, that is great stuff! I will definitely look into those sources. I was cruising the net last night comparing all the different front suspension options. Modified stock stuff, aftermarket using stock pickup points, Mustang II... Each have their merrits. Because this stage of the build is going to be expensive (no way around that), I want to make sure I make an imformed descision.

I haven't measured that rotors, but since the car has a Granada 8 in. under it, I think that spindles and brakes are also Granada. Well, that and I found the tie rod sleeves are 2 sleeves cut in half with one welded inside the other. Ugh!

The attraction to the Mustang II suspension is:
-No shock towers
-Rack and Pinion

Stock configuration pluses:
-More travel
-Getting it done with stock style stuff
-Cuts down on all the metal work

Just thinking out loud. What do you guys think of the Mustang II stuff in one of these cars for my intended purposes?

[cantvalve16]

I plan to kind of abuse this car. Is a Mustang II front suspension not good for that?

Oh, and the car is manual everything except the C4.

[Huskinhano]

Personally I'm not a fan of the MII. Back in the early 80's I had a 80 Pinto with basically the same suspension. I wanted to put a 302 in it. At the time I thought a way to make a car handle was to put on huge sway bars, rock hard springs and shocks. What turned me off is the way the MII cross member and R&P are in location to a 289/302 oil pan. The engine would have to be raised and moved forward. That's when I stopped thinking about it. The MII kits are the same. Take a good look, you have to use a 5.0 Mustang pan to clear the front mounted oil pump where as on your car, it sits in front because you have a rear steer car. The MII stuff is in the way IMO. Another thing, take a look at how caster/camber is set. Slotted openings on the UCA mount. Under hard cornering they're going to slip! I also don't like the fact that almost all the kits do away with the strut. Take a look at any non strut car at it's LCA. What do you see? Two sperated and distinct mounting locations far apart giving a nice solid base. The kits? a spacer on the 3" wide tube to carry all the stress? I'm not an engineer but this looks hokey to me. The kit's big brakes are listed as 11" since the stock MII is 10". You can put some big ass brakes on a 65 and up Mustang! 12" kits are very common. Start checking out the vintage Mustang sites, I don't think you'll find a single guy doing any type of racing other then drag racing or street cruiser with the MII. The first MII swap I ever read about was a guy who drag raced his 70 and he did it only for engine bay room. The 65-70 Mustang uses the same basic floor pan and engine compartment. The reason FE's and 385's fit in the 67-70 is their shock towers are narrower but you can easily narrow yours for room, it's been done many times. I believe the stock system with upgrades will run circles around a MII. Go to the VMF forum and ask the guys who race see what they say. They know a lot more then I do that's for sure. I've just been doing a lot of reading and asking questions.

[langleylad]

I'm considering a TCI front suspension kit for my 68 Cougar . It's $3000 , the kit includes a cross member , upper and lower a-arms , coilovers , 11" disc brakes , lowering spindles , complete rack & pinion steering , and sheet metal panels to fill in where the shock towers were since they are totaly removed which gives you more engine bay room . I'm sure I'm leaving something out ! . I planned on replacing all these components anyhow .

[Huskinhano]

Just got my new lower control arms from Street or Track. I have taken them out yet but I will post pictures after I get back from helping my son move to his new place in Maryland.

[Cyclone03]

I have OpenTrackers catalog on the front of my 68 Mustang,all solid bearings If any of that causes road noise the 3" MagnaFlows and FE mask it pretty well.
Buy good shocks,KYB's may not work well with heavy springs. ( I'm being nice,dont use KYB's)

I have 10,000 miles on a Flaming River 16:1 box. For 9,900 of those miles it just felt "stiff" on center,along with another issue that is just odd.
Last year I drove it from TX to Ca and back. After hours on the road the steering got VERY tight,for some reason it didn't "click" to me why and I forgot about it.

In Jan. this year I started checking bump steer and found the drag link is not centered,pitman arm and ideler arm not parralle to the frame,if the pitman arm was adjustable it's 1/2 a spline "off". Anyway I removed the box and inspected the inards,ended up just cleaning the old greese out and put it back together,thats when it dawned on me why the heavy oncenter and posible the tightening up of the box with heat(time) was because the rack and pinion in the box was adjusted too tight. I set it up like a Ford box with 5-8inlbs (IIRC) of rotation torque and its like a new piece. So now with bump at zero 2" either side of ride hight and only 1/16 at 3" it steers much better than ever.

I have about $1500 in the front of my Mustang and about $600 in the rear including Bilstien shocks,not the cheapest but it's a true performance suspention and more than track day ready,not race.

On edit: I forgot get a good set of springs front and rear and make sure the rates work with each other,I went too soft up front and heavy in the rear(with the wroung shocks,KYB) and the car just seemed to fight both ends,front would grip,then rear oversteer,then swap to front pushing. Very unsettleing.
Im still stiff,over sprung in the rear,but upping the front rate has helped.

[cantvalve16]

Cyclone, thanks so much for the testimony. How is the on center feeling of the adjusted box? Is there a dead spot?

[Cyclone03]

Dead on center...
I dont think so,it has been forever since I drove a stock Mustang power steering car,all mine have been manuals.

With my set up the car will steer with one hand on the freeway at speed,only if the pavement is stepped,or grooved in the direction of travel do you have to DRIVE it, I think the term is trameling(?). This could be a function of the front tire size too.

With the box tight (that sounds dirty) it did pretty good even on So.Cal freeways but the car had to be driven back in line,2 hands on the wheel.
Now I have no plans to drive to Cal this year,but so far over the last 75 miles or so I have to say it's a little less work driving in "trameling" conditions and it now has some return to center it didn't have before.

Dead on center? A little flick of the wheel either way moves the car,so it at least has no on center slopp.

[Huskinhano]

Here's some new bling I just got from Street or Track. Beautifully made parts!

[cantvalve16]

Husk, those look great. Really curious to see how your setup turns out as I may be able to make some purchases at the end of the summer.