Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Any road racing suspension guys here?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Any road racing suspension guys here?

    My 66 Mustang is pretty much a clean canvas at this point. All the suspension components are in excellent shape and basically stock. I have been edumacating myself some what on suspensions with a book written by a guy named Bob Bolles. The name of the book is something like "Stock Car Suspension Set ups" (book is back up someplace after last years house fire), so I have some idea what's going on. Yes, I do hang out on a Mustang forum and have read a lot and picked other peoples minds as well but I thought it would be interesting to broaden the field and see what guys here think or have to say. Next, this is a street car. As much as I'd love to try some sort of open track event, I don't see it happening right now. If some one were to drive my car, I'd like it to feel somewhat like a stocker in normal driving, meaning not having springs or shocks from a dump truck. I don't subscribe to that theory, I believe in letting the suspension do what it's suppose to with good geometry and suprise them with how well it handles when asked to do so. I also subscribe to the KISS theory and to use what you have, I'm not into bling.

    So now I have given you a little background let me tell you my ideas, thoughts. Ideally I would like to use Global West UCA. I think they nailed it. My problem with them is the cost, do I really need them and added incidentals. The problem I'm concerned is with spindles. Unless you stick with 65-66 spindles, later model spindles which are stronger and which a lot of guys use them for disk brakes, which I was planning on doing, cause a really bad bump steer issue to the point of being unsafe. While I could use a bump steer kit, this adds money and also I'm not crazy of using Heim joints on the street being exposed to road grime and so on.

    I'm leaning toward just lowering the stock UCA 1". As I understand, there's not a significant to be gained in camber change after this point...at least for a street driven car. So why spend the money for GW UCA and then the possibility of buying a bump steer kit? I realize shocks are an important piece of the equation so I'm thinking of using Koni shocks. I'm also going to be using a roller spring peaches which is suppose to do wonders freeing up the suspension from binding. I already have a 1" front bar and export brace with a Monte' Carlo bar to be installed next. I don't plan doing to much to the rear axle. Definitely not going to use a rear sway bar, maybe a Panhard bar though.
    Tom
    Overdrive is overrated



  • #2
    Re: Any road racing suspension guys here?

    Just as an FYI I'll tell you what I did with a transpo '67 Mustang awhile back and what I thought about it.

    My wife had this car when I met her and I rebuilt it in the nineties when it got too beat to drive anymore. It was a notchback which I normally don't like but w/ dark green metallic paint and a black vinyl top it looks OK.

    With the front suspension apart I re-drilled the upper a-arm pivot holes down about 5/8ths inch and rrward as far as I could go. It went back together with stock rubber bushings and a fat sway bar, and fresh calipers and rotors for the orig. disc brakes. I set the caster back to perhaps 5 degrees. The shocks were just whatever the biggest ones the parts store had. For the heck of it I installed an export brace. In back I stuck in a 9" I had from a Cougar, the drum brakes were a little wider btw. I used a rr sway bar that came in a kit with the front, their mounting plan was stupid so I fabbed up good frame brackets and links. Shocks same deal as fronts. I got a set of the stock GT-type wheels, this was just before they were re-popped, and went to the trouble to widen them to 7" and have the centers re-chromed. For tires I got cheapo P245-60R14s, this was for a "driver" in the '90s remember. It would never run cool with the orig engine and it didn't with a fresh one, so I put the battery in the trunk and installed a cross-flow radiator from a '70s Cadillac Seville and that cured it. After all this the front of the car sat up too high, my wife said that I better not ever lower her car so I had to wait 'til she was out shopping then cut the coils a bit. All this came along with rebuilt "everything", new paint/interior etc. It won 2nd in class at a local car show when finished and she was happy enough.

    The suspension worked GOOD, for the little that was changed. I was flat amazed. It hauled ass. I'd say fat swaybars, slightly stiffer shocks and the camber mod and caster increase were exactly what it needed. It was really a pleasure to drive. It didn't need urethane anything and rode quiet and smooth like a stocker.

    The steering, less so. Actually the steering sucked, then the rebuilt system literally exploded one day a couple years later. I took it all apart again to adapt in a rack-and-pinion, before kits were available, and "almost" finished that...the car has sat ever since and is getting rotten all over again. That is another story.

    Not being familiar with your year, I couldn't say about the spindles. But you might need some rr swaybar to keep the handling neutral. Whatever you can do about the steering I'd be curious to hear.

    ...

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Any road racing suspension guys here?

      Had a similar experience with my '66 coupe. Car was bone stock when I got it and not worn out. I installed a new manual steering rack as soon as I got the car because the power rack leaked everywhere and was totally loose. The car was still in good condition when I redid the front suspension.

      When I rebuilt the front suspension, I relocated the upper control arm using a template from Tony D. Branda. I then installed new stock upper and lower control arms with bushings that are like polyurethane, but not so stiff. Reused the original springs and installed a 1 in. swaybar to replace the spaghetti noodle that was on there originally. Wheels and tires before and after were 14x7 Torque Thrusts with 195/70/14 BfG on the front and 225/70/14 rear. The rear had (cough) air shocks with just enough air to keep the rear off the 245/60/14s that were on there before. The new front suspension was good, but the rear leaft something to be desired. The brakes were all drums with all new parts. Shocks were parts store gas replacements on the front. I later swapped to a manual steering box as well.

      While not optimal suspension in this car, it was a ton better than stock. Handled great on the freeway offramps and was a joy to drive. It was no Iroc Camaro or anything, but I trusted the car at freeway speeds of 90-100. Never a problem with the setup and it was very simple. Only cost me about $500 for the front. Even with the skinny tires and 14 in. wheels, it was very capable. No road race car, but enough suspension for a warmed over 289/ auto combo.
      Bakersfield, CA.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Any road racing suspension guys here?

        Easy stuff is the control arm relocation, with better springs and front bar as mentioned. Additional caster is great, you would need the aftermarket adjustable strut rods to get 5 deg. positive, that's something I haven't done on my Cougar yet. If they go in your budget, the Koni Classic shocks for these cars are magic. I had KYB Gas-A-Justs before, and the Konis transformed the car. Flat cornering, and good ride, even with 18s on the car. The roller spring perches from Opentracker Products are pretty neat too, I'm tempted to try a pair.

        If you do some searching over on Corner-Carvers.com, there are a ton of threads on early Mustang suspension buildups.


        cheers
        Ed N.
        Ed Nicholson - Caledon Ontario - a bit NW of Toronto
        07 Mustang GT with some stuff
        88 T-Bird Turbo Coupe 5-speed

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Any road racing suspension guys here?

          I'm lean more toward a car with more suspension than motor. I know Iknow, it's blasphemy. But the point is a car that doesn't have to slow down as much doesn't have to have an greater amount of power to approach the same exiting speed. As a monster that can't turn. I'll take an F1 around (not straight obviously) any track over a pro stock, even thow i'm down 8oo bhp. Now thats a extreme example but you get me.

          Carrol Smith has some absolutely AMAZING books on suspension design theory all of it.
          Tune to Win, Race to win,Design to win,Drive to win, Nut bolt and fasteners. Every one of these books should be read multiple times to absorb the amount of info that he'll throw at you. That said if your not wanting to change the OEM equipment you'll need to really think about it. We live in a world today where your supposed to buy a kit rather than think outside the box. Stuff like what KSO4 said is exactly what I'm referring to. I also agree about a sway out back. C.Smith believes in just enough spring to keep it off the ground , stiff enough shocks to stop it from oscillating, and thick as sways to stop body roll.
          So good luck man with what ever you decide, but to get her to handle you may have to sacrifice some things.
          Chris

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Any road racing suspension guys here?

            Originally posted by fast Ed


            If you do some searching over on Corner-Carvers.com, there are a ton of threads on early Mustang suspension buildups.


            cheers
            Ed N.
            Been there. Yeah, you gotta watch your P's & Q's there!
            Tom
            Overdrive is overrated


            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Any road racing suspension guys here?

              There is also a track forum on www.vintage-mustang.com, searching there should dig up some good info.

              As for C-C.com, as they say, "bring the tech" or don't post. LOL


              cheers
              Ed N.
              Ed Nicholson - Caledon Ontario - a bit NW of Toronto
              07 Mustang GT with some stuff
              88 T-Bird Turbo Coupe 5-speed

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Any road racing suspension guys here?

                Originally posted by fast Ed
                There is also a track forum on www.vintage-mustang.com, searching there should dig up some good info.

                As for C-C.com, as they say, "bring the tech" or don't post. LOL


                cheers
                Ed N.
                VMF is where I hang out. Yes, a lot of great info there but I was curious what guys here had to say, being a different type of forum, may have different insight and ideas.
                Tom
                Overdrive is overrated


                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Any road racing suspension guys here?

                  If you can do basic welding work you can make your own UCA starting with the stock piece, all you are doing with the negative roll is canting the ball joint mounting point. The goal is to have the ball joint in the middle of its lateral travel at the planned ride height. You can set all this up with the springs out of the car running the suspension through its travel to check the camber curve.

                  The urethane spring perches that come with the grease fitting work just about as well as the roller conversions for far less money. The original "Shelby" 1" drop to front UCA pick-up point was a compromise to keep the upper ball joint from binding. 1.25" is better from a camber curve perspective and you should be shooting for the lower control arm to be parallel to the ground at running weight (with you in the car, 1/2 tank of gas). Buy the best shocks you can afford, double adjustables, budget permitting. You'll like the moderate spring, big sway bar plan others have mentioned, but you should upgrade to the Posi-links offerred by several companies now rather than the stock style. Last, do not use urethane strut rod bushings. It has the effect of turning the strut rod into a torsion bar eventually resulting in catastrophic failure. Ask me how I know.
                  Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Any road racing suspension guys here?

                    Originally posted by CDMBill
                    Last, do not use urethane strut rod bushings. It has the effect of turning the strut rod into a torsion bar eventually resulting in catastrophic failure. Ask me how I know.
                    Yikes...what happened?
                    ...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Any road racing suspension guys here?

                      While I am working on an AMC the rear suspension is similar, just a basic leaf-spring horse cart suspension LOL. All the pony cars (No pun intended) have the same deal so any leaf-spring improvment experiences would be good to hear.

                      I purchased a Mustang 'Maier Racing' adjustable Panhard bar and I'm choping it appart to work on my Javelin. I think a panhard rod will go a long way in keeping the rear axle where it should be and not allow any un-controled side-to-side axle binding while cornering. I have read the this makes a big difference on iniitial turn-in and mid corner stability, allong with better control of things when grip goes away.

                      Curious to know what experience is out there on this, or any other panhard install?

                      I too believe that having "more suspension than motor".... More Brakes is a damn good idea too. I am a few month away from using all my suspension/Brake changes, god I hope it all works?!?!

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X