Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

[musclemotor]

Hey guys, for those of you that don't know me, I'm Bob Gribble, aka "Grib", owner of MuscleMotorSports in Charlotte,NC. We sell used NASCAR parts including engine parts. We also build race motors from used NASCAR engines for all types of applications. The reason for this post is to get some background on why there's such a bad reputation for SB 2 engines not being good for other types of racing? (The SB2.2 Chevrolet engine was used in NASCAR until this year and is being replaced with the RO7 Motor)

Case in point is I built a 358 cu.in. motor for a guy to be road raced. (you can see the build at http
;//www.musclemotorparts.com/andrew.htm ) We dyno'ed the motor with some pretty good results of 810 HP on the 2nd pull with the rings not fully seated as yet. We were pleased and sent the guy his dyno sheets. The guy came back with a report from his engine builder who said it was "peakey", that all SB2's are "peaky". Now, I'm pleased with the torque curve, pretty flat from 4500 to 8500 all in the mid to upper 500's. So WTF is "peakey"? I'll have the dyno sheets added to the webpage tonight so you can see them yourself. BTW, this guy got a complete brand new engine build (utilizing some used parts) that made 810 HP for $18K. I have built a small block SB2 that made 939 on motor only.

For the life of me I can't imagine what the difference is between a 18 Deg or 23 Deg Chevy motor and the SB2 that would make it undesirable for other types of racing. But, I can't tell you how many times I've heard that the SB2 isn't any good for DragRacing, LandSpeed or Boats or whatever. I think it comes from some old timer engine builders that just don't know the SB2 motor? Now I'm an old timer engine builder and I think most engines are good for what you build them for. Anywho, I'd be interested in your opinion.

[tiresmoke!]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

Hey Bob-

I won't even try to pretend I'm an expert on the SB2 engines, but while the torque curve is flat from 4500 to 8500, what is it, from idle up TO 4500?

HP curve?

Define "road racer". Is this vehicle running on a close-course, or actually on the open road(i.e. Silver State Challenge)?

Perhaps the issue lies in the gearing?

Looking to learn here.

Tiresmoke!

[musclemotor]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

Road Racer in this instance is a road course like Road Atlanta, In answer to below 4500 RPM, in all the years I've been associated with NASCAR, I've never seen a dyno pull under 4000 RPM. I suppose it could be done but I do believe that most race engines are built to make HP above that number. Stump-pullin Diesel engines make power at low RPM, LOL. Seriously, if you're making similar torque/Hp at 4000 all the way through 8500 you've got a strong motor, no?

[tiresmoke!]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

Should get out of it's own way in an efficient manner.

They dyno sheets would be great to study.....perhaps I'm missing something here.

Doesn't seem "peaky" at all.

[krusty]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

Grib - sounds like his engine builder needs to let you see his less "peaky" dyno sheets from his non-SB2 engine. Driver must need a LOT of help if he can't run Atlanta with a 4k rpm torque curve. My engine "consultant" ( a Hendrick builder/tuner) sez he can make 950 no problemo with a few mods that NASCAR doesn't allow; why wouldn't you want this? My problem is that if too many "outsiders" see how easy and reasonably priced this stuff is I'll have stiffer competition if I use it! vic

[Termin8orFox]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

I have seen some pretty stout SB2-headed smallblocks used in drag racing sucessfully. Wheel 2 Wheel here in the detroit area used to build a lot of them. They have trickled their way down into drag racing, and I am sure they will flat out rain down once they have to change to the new R07 motor. They seem to work very well from what I have seen, but people fear change and fear what they do not know or understand......... I have seen quite a few of them under the hoods of alot of hig-end drag cars at my late uncle's wiring shop. (Michael"sparky" Browne, Wires&Pliers RIP)

Rudy

[terry russell]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

Welcome Bob.
Iam no expert,but I have seen more than 1 of these engines push cars to 185-200+mph at maxton.
I think like most things there is a learning curve.
terry

[greenjunk]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

Whats up bob. The SB2 motor made incredible power for LSR setups. Had a 1000hp rod been spec'd for a 1000hp motor, it would still be running today. 600+hp/tq from 4000-8900rpm was enough to blow my mind, add 225 shot to that, and you had the prettiest sounding motor ever. I love em, wish I could afford to build a TT version. I've driven 900+hp street cars, but to have a motor that just never stops pulling, is just a mind altering experience. especially when you go 20+mph faster than you ever have at maxton in the process. 212.987mph. A green hat and one expensive jacket.

[min301]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

Hey guys, for those of you that don't know me, I'm Bob Gribble, aka "Grib", owner of MuscleMotorSports in Charlotte,NC. We sell used NASCAR parts including engine parts. We also build race motors from used NASCAR engines for all types of applications. The reason for this post is to get some background on why there's such a bad reputation for SB 2 engines not being good for other types of racing? (The SB2.2 Chevrolet engine was used in NASCAR until this year and is being replaced with the RO7 Motor)

Case in point is I built a 358 cu.in. motor for a guy to be road raced. (you can see the build at http
;//www.musclemotorparts.com/andrew.htm ) We dyno'ed the motor with some pretty good results of 810 HP on the 2nd pull with the rings not fully seated as yet. We were pleased and sent the guy his dyno sheets. The guy came back with a report from his engine builder who said it was "peakey", that all SB2's are "peaky". Now, I'm pleased with the torque curve, pretty flat from 4500 to 8500 all in the mid to upper 500's. So WTF is "peakey"? I'll have the dyno sheets added to the webpage tonight so you can see them yourself. BTW, this guy got a complete brand new engine build (utilizing some used parts) that made 810 HP for $18K. I have built a small block SB2 that made 939 on motor only.

For the life of me I can't imagine what the difference is between a 18 Deg or 23 Deg Chevy motor and the SB2 that would make it undesirable for other types of racing. But, I can't tell you how many times I've heard that the SB2 isn't any good for DragRacing, LandSpeed or Boats or whatever. I think it comes from some old timer engine builders that just don't know the SB2 motor? Now I'm an old timer engine builder and I think most engines are good for what you build them for. Anywho, I'd be interested in your opinion.

I'd be very interested in whatever you can share, and show.
I'd like to see the graph.

From what I've read, that is not at all peaky.
Having built serious SBC's for circle track use, I cannot fathom his complaint.

[tiresmoke!]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

[quote=musclemotor ]



RE-reviewed the post...perhaps the guy's "engine builder" is just saying that as a way to discredit you....to regain this gent's business.

[Caveman]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

Maybe the definition of 'not-peaky' is 'Big-block'?

I agree with tiresmoke, I think the other engine builder is trying to discredit you for his own gain.
In a light car, with strong pull up to redline, you'd run out of pavement before you reached the 'peak'...

What's the engine going into? If it's a heavy car, maybe some serious gearing is in order.

[JeffMcKC]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

The problem has been in the heads till they got the CSA up on them, no one races a 358 CID motor in Drag Race conditions and finding a intake for them. Things are coming around a few guys like Curtis Boggs at RFD are now doing them for larger cubic inch motors. A purpose built 18 or 10 or 12 will make more power than a SB2 take off you buy on EBay

Plus a lot of local class engines in a effort to keep cost in line require a wedge head.

[Eric68]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

The premise of the question is that the SB 2.2 has a bad rap, and I'm not so sure I agree with that. There are some drag race guys that swear by them and based on the results I would have to agree. Scott Smith is one who comes to mind, if interested in what he likes about them he can be found over at www.Dragraceresults.com There are at least a couple guys over there that really like the SB2.2

The problem I personally see with them is two-fold. First, they are designed for high RPM 350-360" engines and high compression. The trend in drag racing is big engines (like 421-434) and it is tough to get the compression down with 3.75-4.00" strokes. Second, the port design is maximized in many cases for restrictor plates -- this leaves them "not optimized" for unrestricted drag racing applications. Those two issues combined with the need for special intakes, special pistons, special headers, special camshafts, makes them unattractive to most of the Sportsman drag racers.

Now I know for a fact that these two issues can be fixed easy enough and as long as the matching intake manifolds are available I personally see them as a great buy for a high end drag race motor. I am not as familiar with circle track applications which may be your intended market, but that is the deal with drag racing.

Hope that helps.

[CDMBill]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

I'm not in a position to talk intelligently about SBC's of any kind, but I do know a couple of local guys who are running ex NASCAR Yates headed SBF's in road race, open track type deals and making lots of power over a very usable rpm range. All of the trick parts like the water pumps and other bits make for a hgh power lower maintenance deal given the engines aren''t stressed like they are in Cup car. That said neither guy is a bucks down type and they were comparing pretty expensive alternatives when they bought their motors form Roush. IN Ford land you make a lot of stuff anyway so the savings aren't there as they seem to be for the typical SBC in a Camaro or Malibu combination.

If I was going to go road racing or open track with SBF the first place I'd look is for one of the Roush 'Cleveland' motors. For 430" DW engine I think I'd be building a CHI headed Dart block deal.

[squeeezer]

Re: Why the bad rep for NASCAR SB2.2 engines?

id build one right now if i had the heads, dedicated intake, dedicated pistons, and put it under nothing smaller than427cubes

it would be my dream engine with a turbo ;D