Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

    Lately I have been playing with Torque Pro to observe and log data from the truck as I drive around town. This is a fantastic app that works very well.

    Since the weather has warmed up, the truck has started doing a strange thing with timing. I believe it starts after the truck has entered closed loop operation. It is retarding the timing like crazy when you start to accelerate. Also when sitting in gear at a light, the timing is all over the place, but the idle remains smooth. Turn the truck off, turn it back on and it is normal again. I do not think it is related to my phaser lockouts because others have reported the same sort of bog when the weather is warm/hot.

    To enter closed loop, certain conditions have to be met:
    When the engine is first started, and rpm is above 400 rpm, the system goes into 'Open Loop' operation. In 'Open Loop', the ECM will ignore the signal from the Oxygen (O2) sensor and calculate the air/fuel ratio based on inputs from the coolant and MAF sensors, but mostly from a pre-programmed table in the memcal.The system will stay in 'Open Loop' until the following conditions are met:

    1. The O2 sensor has varying voltage output, showing that it is hot enough to operate properly. (This depends on temperature)
    2. The coolant sensor is above a specified temperature about 40oC/104oF.
    3. A specific amount of time has elapsed after starting the engine. (some say around 700 seconds, but this could vary by model)

    The specific values for the above conditions vary with different engines and are stored in the mem-cal. When these conditions are met, the system goes into 'Closed Loop' operation. In 'Closed Loop', the ECM will calculate the air/fuel ratio (injector on-time) based on the various sensors but mainly the O2 sensor. This allows the air/fuel ratio to stay very close to 14.7:1.
    Torque allows you to log a ton of info. I didn't have a good way to view it though until I found www.datazap.me. I like it because it is online based and I can view logs at home or at work.

    This screenshot is from yesterday when I was sitting waiting to pick up my kid at school. Closed loop. Most of this is me sitting idling in neutral. Note that the timing is wandering a little (a few degrees), but is generally pretty consistent. Just after the weirdo spike (what the heck?) I put it in gear, held my foot on the brake (note the area where the rpm drops down and vacuum drops) and the timing just goes bonkers. Once I put it back in park, the timing stabilized somewhat. Weird stuff, but definitely interesting.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	datazap-chart.png
Views:	1
Size:	96.3 KB
ID:	1099903

    Not sure exactly what is going on there. Prior to switching loops, the truck runs great. After switching modes, which I believe is in the area of 550-600 seconds after startup.

    I'm going to keep logging different parameter and see what is causing this.

    What I REALLY need is an exhaustive list of PIDs and their formulas for this ECM (2007 F150 - 5.4L). There is just not a whole lot of info out there about it though.
    Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
    1983 Mustang GT 552/C6 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
    1973 F-250 460/E4OD http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
    1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

  • #2

    Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

    Wow, that IS really weird.

    My magnum has been doing something weird, your truck reminds me of it. I'm almost wondering if I need to replace the drive-by-wire pedal input thingy.....its like the computer doesn't understand what to do.

    Hope the truck turns out to be something simple.
    Of all the paths you take in life - make sure a few of them are dirt.

    Comment


    • #3

      Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

      I've tried to log the accelerator pedal percentage, but it won't do it for some reason. I have absolute throttle position set to log and it works good (although the units are weird), but I really need both for an accurate comparison.

      I am going to experiment a little this weekend and unplug the O2's to prevent it from entering closed loop just to see if that changes anything.
      Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
      1983 Mustang GT 552/C6 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
      1973 F-250 460/E4OD http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
      1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

      Comment


      • #4

        Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

        bouncing timing at idle is absolutely normal. that's how the OEMs maintain idle speed with a torque reserve. My first question is, "does it feel wrong when you accelerate" ?
        Last edited by dieselgeek; April 29th, 2016, 06:42 AM.
        www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

          Yeah, it feels wrong.

          I get that some timing bounce may be ok, but a 10+ degree bounce sounds kinda crazy.

          The main issue I am chasing is it pulling scads of timing in first gear at drive away when in closed loop.

          Scenario: Sitting at a stoplight, trying to accelerate, but the ECM is retarding the timing up to 10 degrees ATDC, then as rpm increases, it recovers and accelerates normal. This does not happen when the ECM is in open loop.

          In this pic you can see the timing advances at drive away and the truck feels awesome. This is early in this datalog and the ECM should still be in open loop. Click image for larger version

Name:	datazap-chart(1).png
Views:	1
Size:	62.7 KB
ID:	1100109






          This pic is later in the same log after the qualifications for closed loop have been met I believe. Notice the sharp drop in timing (bottoming out at -9 degrees!) at drive away only to sort of recover right at the 1-2 shift. When this happens, the truck feels boggy. It's almost like it is miscalculating load for some reason and sucking all the timing out. Click image for larger version

Name:	datazap-chart(2).png
Views:	1
Size:	58.9 KB
ID:	1100108






          Now this may be totally related to me running the phaser lockouts, but I am not 100% convinced it is since this problem (or very similar problems) is very prevalent in 04-08 5.4L F150 community.

          As a check, I unplugged both VCT solenoids yesterday evening. Doing this sets a code and the ECM then disables the VCT functions much like disabling it through a tuner such as HP Tuners. If it continues to act odd, then I can have some degree of certainty that the presence of the lockouts (and the associated P0011 and P0021 codes) are likely not the issue. I will try to log some data today to see if it has any effect.

          Anyway, I'm going to keep fiddling with it to see if I can pinpoint the root cause.
          Last edited by BBR; May 3rd, 2016, 01:35 PM.
          Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
          1983 Mustang GT 552/C6 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
          1973 F-250 460/E4OD http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
          1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

          Comment


          • #6

            Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

            Is there any chance its knock retard? It would make sense that it wouldn't happen when it wasn't up to operating temp(open loop) but once warmed up might have a problem? Maybe try some premium fuel and see if you see a change?
            1968 Plymouth Barracuda Formula S 340 with a 360
            1997 Jeep Cherokee off road toy/driver. lifted, lockers, stroked 4.0

            Comment


            • #7

              Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

              IDK, I have a PID set up for KR, but it is either not registering anything or that particular PID is not the correct one for this PCM.

              I'm really just looking for a good reason to justify to the wife that I need to purchase HP Tuners. hee hee
              BlueCuda340 likes this.
              Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
              1983 Mustang GT 552/C6 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
              1973 F-250 460/E4OD http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
              1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

                I ran across another app like Torque that is specific to Fords. It is called FORScan. It is available in iOS, Andriod and for Windows. Very cool app. It will log a gazillion more things than I can with Torque (because of lack of PID adresses and equations), but it isn't as customizable as far as the gauges and stuff go.

                Anyway, I just started playing with it today and have not had a chance to get it all set up and working like I want. But one thing I was able to log was open/closed loop and if it is accurate, this thing is in closed loop most all of the time, only popping into OL-Drive mode every once in a while. And for the life of me, I could not pin down why it would switch at the times it did. Interesting.
                Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
                1983 Mustang GT 552/C6 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
                1973 F-250 460/E4OD http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
                1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

                Comment


                • #9

                  Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

                  FORScan is pretty cool and is the app I will be using from now on.

                  I logged data on a drive downtown and back the other night. It's interesting and almost bizarre as to when the PCM decides to go open loop and when it decides to use the CMCV's (or IMRC's). Neither seem to act like I would think they should. Haha.

                  The search continues.
                  Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
                  1983 Mustang GT 552/C6 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
                  1973 F-250 460/E4OD http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
                  1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

                    Sounds like maybe a couple of different things are occurring?

                    I'm sure strongly thinking "EGR" issues. Sticky sensor....or sticky valve? I say this because my Magnum with the 3.5 has a known issue with the sensor sticking - while the valve itself is perfectly fine. And of course they are a combined component, can't service individually.

                    My sensor sticking makes the ECM think the mixture is wrong and when it tries to compensate idle and low speed and cruise all go wacky, with occasional stalling at parking lot speeds.

                    Interestingly the CEL will be on for weeks at a time (comes on briefly after each startup, so its a realtime code) Everyonce in a while something "unsticks" and its fine for 100 miles or so, then back to the antics.

                    Just thinking aloud.
                    Last edited by STINEY; May 2nd, 2016, 08:20 AM.
                    Of all the paths you take in life - make sure a few of them are dirt.

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

                      No egr on a 3v 5.4L so that is out. My focus the last couple of days has been on the throttle position and tip in retard.

                      Some Fords have a tip in retard and maybe this is a tip in retard that is being exacerbated by wonky TPS readings and high iat readings.

                      It seems like something is causing the pcm to maybe see a bigger load than really exists. There are several throttle related things in the data stream. Accelerator pedal position, electronically controlled throttle position, and a separate TPS are among them. You'd think they would be darn near carbon copies kd one another, but they are not. I don't know if this is correct or not though.

                      I do have a buddy with a newish 3v 5.4L Expedition that runs great. I hope to datalog it and see how things are 'supposed to look' and compare them to mine.
                      Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
                      1983 Mustang GT 552/C6 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
                      1973 F-250 460/E4OD http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
                      1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

                      Comment


                      • #12

                        Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

                        what cable do you use to connect to your phone?
                        Neal

                        Drag Week 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

                          I use a bluetooth adapter like this one.

                          http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...NZRG5CC37K2ECF
                          Last edited by BBR; May 3rd, 2016, 05:47 AM.
                          Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
                          1983 Mustang GT 552/C6 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
                          1973 F-250 460/E4OD http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
                          1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

                            I wish my brain would not stop substituting open loop for closed loop and vice versa..... phoooey.

                            Noticed something odd.

                            On cold morning start, the Cylinder Head Temp (used now in lieu of an ECT sensor) reads 96 and the PCM is reporting closed loop.
                            Last edited by BBR; May 4th, 2016, 01:46 PM.
                            Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
                            1983 Mustang GT 552/C6 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
                            1973 F-250 460/E4OD http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
                            1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: Logging the F150 with Torque Pro for Android to track down a timing anamoly.

                              I am starting to think the bog may be related to a P2006 code that has been hiding in the PCM. P2006 is Bank 1 IMRC (Intake Manifold Runner Control) stuck closed. IMRC is also called "CMCV" - Charge Motion Control Valve. This truck has a single actuator that operates the plates on both sides via a linkage so I am going to assume that Bank 1 code is not specific to just one side.

                              Actuator and linkage: Click image for larger version

Name:	image-2834251021.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	120.5 KB
ID:	1101332


                              Click image for larger version

Name:	large.JPG
Views:	1
Size:	32.2 KB
ID:	1101333






                              Now that I can log the IMRC movement in this thing, it only seems to operate very early in a cold run cycle. Then it goes inop. I noticed it yesterday when I started home from work. Fired up the truck, pulled out and while the IMRC system was working it was super responsive. I found a test procedure for the F150 IMRC that I will try this weekend.

                              The Charge Motion Control Valve (CMCV). It is an electrical actuator located on the back of the lower chamber of the intake manifold, and it functions to change the intake air path through the manifold from long runners to short runners, depending on engine RPM and load. This results in a sudden boost of extra torque because more air can get into the cylinders. The connector on the CMCV actuator is not easily accessed. To test the CMCV actuator, access the PCM power train control module connectors. The PCM is at the top of the firewall on the passenger side of the engine compartment. The CMCV command and monitor circuits are in PCM connector C175E, the closest to the passenger fender of the three PCM connectors. The CMCV command wire is a Light Blue/Orange wire in pin 50 of C175E, and the CMCV monitor wire is a Black/White wire in pin 43 of C175E.

                              The PCM grounds the Light Blue/Orange CMCV command wire at engine startup to close the CMCV runners. When driving, the PCM ungrounds this circuit at higher RPM to open the CMCV runners. The PCM will not unground this circuit when the engine is revved up in park or neutral, the vehicle must be under driving conditions. The PCM sends battery voltage out to the CMCV actuator on the Black/White Monitor circuit. Whenever the Light Blue/Orange CMCV Command circuit is NOT grounded, and the CMCV runners are in the open position, the CMCV actuator grounds this circuit, pulling the voltage down close to zero volts. Whenever the command circuit is grounded, and the CMCV runners are in the closed position, the CMCV actuator ungrounds the monitor circuit, and the voltage rises close to battery voltage. On scan data, whenever there is battery voltage on the CMCV monitor circuit, the CMCV Monitor PID will read 5 volts. This is a normal "quirk" in the system.

                              To test the CMCV actuator, disconnect PCM connector C175E. With the key on, and being careful not to spread or otherwise damage the connector terminals, ground and unground the Light Blue/Orange wire in pin 50. CMCV actuator movement should be heard as the circuit is grounded and ungrounded, and a light and mirror can be used to watch for the actuator and linkage to move back and forth. At the same time, monitor the Black/White wire in pin 43. It should show ground when pin 50 is not grounded, and no ground when pin 50 is grounded. If the actuator does not move, and/or the monitor circuit does not ground and unground properly, the CMCV actuator will need to be accessed to verify that the command and monitor circuits are not open or shorted. Also check for battery voltage to the CMCV actuator on the Red/Yellow wire, from fuse 32 in the inside fuse box, and a good ground on the CMCV actuator Black/White wire (the one next to the Red/Yellow wire in the CMCV actuator connector), from ground G103, at the rear of the passenger side fender, next to the rear of the battery. If the wiring all checks OK, replace the CMCV actuator.
                              My thought is, since the electronic throttle system is torque demand based, when you hit the gas, the PCM is opening the throttle body expecting to produce "x" amount of torque. When it does not, (because of restricted airflow due to the CMCV plates being closed), it goes WOT (actual and desired throttle positions are very similar in the logs) in an attempt to produce "x" amount of torque. This causes the PCM to think the load is very very high and pulls timing to avoid possible spark knock. Then as rpm increases, torque demand lessens and the timing ramps back in. Now as to why it goes inop after a few minutes, I have no idea, but now that I know it *does* open and close and I know the test procedure, maybe I can nail it down.

                              This is just my theory. I try to will log more data to see if it supports or refutes my theory.
                              Last edited by BBR; May 6th, 2016, 08:45 AM.
                              Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
                              1983 Mustang GT 552/C6 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
                              1973 F-250 460/E4OD http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
                              1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X