LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

[TC]

Well I finally decided to take the plunge into EFI and start tuning my '99 Z28 myself. I've come across two tuning softwares that most people are using, but was wondering which one you guys would recommend. Anyway the two are LS1 Edit and HP Tuners, which one would you guys go with or is their even a better one than these two.

[dieselgeek]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

If you have to choose between the two, HPT all the way. That's just based on opinion, I think you can accomplish the same things in both cases.

Be ready to be confused though. Both of them are *HARD AS HELL* to figure out what you're doing. I hate both, really... i.e., don't let your frustration make you think that all EFI tuning has to be as complicated as what they make it (they have to be, since you are tweaking GM's factory software, which is far more complex than even the most advanced MOTEC).

If you are looking for "how to learn EFI tuning" i'd recommend piggybacking a standalone and taking over fuel control, then spark. Plenty of HPT and LS1 Edit guys would like you to think you can do anything with those software packages, but what they don't often talk about is whether or not the tuning changes scale properly with different barometric conditions, etc.

I vote that you get HPT, make some minor tweaks, maybe do a speed density tune and put in a more aggressive cam - work your way up slowly.

[TC]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

Thanks Scott, ya this is a whole new field for me, and honestly I don't know much about the tuning aspect of it all. But hey you got to learn sometime, right. I to was weighing towards the HPT, seems a little easier to use from what I've seen. I've also been reading about the MegaSquirt and how it works. I'm thinking it might help me understand the tuning aspect a little more.

And yes a camshaft is in the works, but I'm figuring I should learn with the stock setup before jumping into that boat.

And when your talking about piggy backing, are you talking about running like a MS along with the stock computer??

[dieselgeek]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

Yes, when I talk about piggybacking, I'm talking about using something like a Megasquirt to do the fuel control. Detach the factory computer from the injectors (it'll still think it's controlling them) but run them with the MS instead. All it needs is a vacuum line (to it's onboard MPA sensor), power and ground, coolant and air temp sensors, and the TPS signal...

The HPT stuff really isn't great at teaching you EFi tuning because it's just so damned complex. What' you're really learning there is, how to use tools to fool the factory computer into wither coaxing more HP out of your existing setup, or making use of your modifications to fool it into running good. It's still "fooling" OEM software. There are guys here who will say "Well, I can get 900whp out of a stock computer so why go with a standalone" but none of them know for sure what they're really doing to the tune at high power (i.e., if you drive up a mountain, will it lean out or richen up or ?)

I think the best way to learn, is a simple standalone. The MS guys have it all wrapped up as far as good documentation. The mega manual's tuning guide is a real good read, you can find it on www.msefi.com. MS simplifies the whole tuning process - you won't have to mess with Power Enrichment tables, multiple correction tables, etc. Just a simple spark table, fuel table, and a couple simple temp corrections (i.e., add 15% more fuel when the coolant temp is real cold, etc.)


the cheapest way to learn it, is to get a junker and wire up the MS. I know a few guys who have learned that way, what's cool is, you can be tuning a lawnmower or a 1200hp turbo car and they work *exactly* the same way. If someone was asking me "How should I learn EFI" I'd say, get a POS car that was EFI from the factory, slap on a megasquirt, and get to it. then on your second project, once you got the basics down, go nuts. but, you can learn it a hundred different ways, this is just my opinion.

It's cool that you're getting into it. Mail order tunes are BOGUS. Either way, you'll be glad you did - it's just that, HPT is quite complex and all it's letting you do is tweak GM computers a little bit. But in the end it IS still EFI tuning...

-scott

[shaun callaway]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

As scott has said learning EFI tuning should not be done with HPT but it is what is availiable for the guys who dont want to step up. The theory behinh HPT and an actual standalone is different.

Standalone you have full control of what you are doing. Much easier to use.

HPT is just software to tweak the stock calibration. You can get some good results with this but you have to know what your doing.

[TC]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

I'm figuring I'm going to do a bunch of reading about tuning, and definitely ask you guys about stuff, before I jump in. I like to have a good basic knowledge before I jump into anything.

I have one question, I have to do emissions here in Phoenix, so will piggy backing a MS cause me problems with that??

[shaun callaway]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

depending on how you do it.

if they need to plug into the ECM you can make the ECM happy and not throw any codes but it can be a bit tricky. then the ms can do its thing but the install has to be super clean for the visual and it cant look like anything is out of place. Before you get into this us a car that you dont want to drive lol. you may be getting in over your head.

[TC]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

depending on how you do it.

if they need to plug into the ECM you can make the ECM happy and not throw any codes but it can be a bit tricky. then the ms can do its thing but the install has to be super clean for the visual and it cant look like anything is out of place. Before you get into this us a car that you dont want to drive lol. you may be getting in over your head.

Last time I went through, they didn't do a visual, just plugged into the car. They didn't even look under the car to see if it had cats. So I might be able to get away with it.

[shaun callaway]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

i would still spend alot of time doing a clean job just in case.

the tricky part is tricking the stock ECM to not throw codes. which i dont think we should discuss on the forum lol. i have done it but will not tell people how to do it.

[TC]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

One thing I like about the HPT is how it allows you to adjust the transmission. One of my biggest complaints I have is how the trany shift. I was checking out the the HPT software and it has tables for the shift points vs MPH, which is exactly what I need. Ever since I switched to 373 gears it shifts really quick into second. It's definitely something I need to adjust.

[dieselgeek]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

One thing I like about the HPT is how it allows you to adjust the transmission. One of my biggest complaints I have is how the trany shift. I was checking out the the HPT software and it has tables for the shift points vs MPH, which is exactly what I need. Ever since I switched to 373 gears it shifts really quick into second. It's definitely something I need to adjust.

that's another benefit of HPT that I didn't cover. There's stuff in there you can do that the MS isn't going to control (well, you CAN modify a megasquirt to control a GM electronic trans). At the same time, there are things in there that don't work as advertised.

How much $$ is HPT for your car? It's pretty affordable now, right? If so, I say "get it" and put up a blog of the things you are trying to do here, and if they work for you or not. Document it for other people to follow. LS1tech.com and other sites will have guys that can help you out a LOT also...

[greenjunk]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

really the only difference between HPtuners and LS1 edit is ls1 edit always writes the whole program, which takes forever, and its doesn't tell you what you've changed. Hptuners, only writes the changes made, and colorcoats what you have changed so you know where you are. You also need to remeber before you make any changes to pull a copy of your factory tune out, that way if you mess up you can just put the factory tune in and start over again. i think hp tuners may be missing a couple features that ls1edit has, but are rarely used, but nice under special circumstances. Its been a couple years since I've even looked at that stuff, but I've seen a lot of crazy stuff done with a stock computer and hp tuners and ls1edit.

[TC]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

How much $$ is HPT for your car? It's pretty affordable now, right? If so, I say "get it" and put up a blog of the things you are trying to do here, and if they work for you or not. Document it for other people to follow. LS1tech.com and other sites will have guys that can help you out a LOT also...

It's about $500-$650 depending on which one you get. They have a standard and a professional. So it's a bit of a hit.

And that's a good idea about the blog. I will definitely do that.

[dieselgeek]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

Something else you are gonna want is an wideband oxygen sensor and controller. I'd get an LM-1 (while they're affordable and still available) - you won't need a fancy one, just something that has an "output" to feed into your HPTuners setup.

that way, you can datalog and plot the AFRs (from a more trustworthy source - the wideband) against RPM/load.

The other thing I think you should get - and some people laugh at this - is a G-tech Pro. We used one on the Parish truck every time we'd make a change and it was CRAZY accurate and consistent... we could tell if a minor change was working for us or not.

You'll be able to datalog some really cool stuff too. Knock, air temps, atmospheric pressure, coolant temps, etc.

[TC]

Re: LS1 Edit or HP Tuners

I was thinking of getting the professional version, just for the fact that it has the extra inputs for data logging.

Also LM-1?? Is this what your talking about.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Innovate-Wideband-o2-Sensor-LM1-AF-Gauge-Kit-LM-1_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c240Q3a1308Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem2301b3f46cQQitemZ150352426092QQptZRaceQ5fCarQ5fParts

And I always wondered about those G-tech's.