NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

easy to tune , just acts like cancer on a bank account
no wonder why H_AMB is so popular

[JeffMcKC]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

I am betting he is on his phone right now

[dieselgeek]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

I am betting he is on his phone right now

on the phone trying to find the now-too-popular Hamlin hall sensor we want to use. Digi Key had 50 of them in stock a month ago. A couple of internet posts later and BAM - Hamlin engineer told me they've never had a run on sensors like "when those megasquirt guys started buying them up" :


as for engine masters. I couldn't find anyone serious enough to build the necessary "ringer" for the competition, after doing much research, I was a little less interested... I did find a couple guys who say they want to do serious effort next year, one of them owns his own dyno, so maybe next year.

As for carbs versus EFI, my thoughts:

- any "cooling" effect of the intake charge is offset by a restriction that causes manifold vacuum. No way is this an advantage for the carb application

- wet fuel in the intake takes the place of valuable oxygen. Advantage: EFI

- I think most of the top engine builders are, understandably, deterred by the complexity of EFI. Let's not kid ourselves, I've done something near 400 EFI installs/tunes and there are times when I am still stuck scratching my head at certain issues (lately, pickup sensors in distributorless applications). The stuff can be a REAL challenge. There is one "famous" engine builder on here - whose won EMC previously - who tried a FAST EFI system on his particular engine, and could never get it to run. Later, on a nearly identical engine, I helped a guy get that same FAST system working, and we found that FAST had mis-labelled the distributor cap it supplies, so if you followed their instructions, your rotor phasing could no way be correct. This kind of BS from "top vendors" and lack of quality control is yet another reason the big guys stick with what they know - because EFI can reduce a well respected, highly-internet-worshipped engine builder into a confused, sobbing crybaby very quickly :-\

-I bet that if Kaase or Bischoff set up an appropriate dry intake, and let an experienced tuner work out the bugs and do the tune on one of their engines, they'd pick up power over the EMC RPM window. Every time I've done a conversion that was a decent comparison to the carb setup, we've picked up a little HP and a LOT of torque down low. And eliminated the "dip" in power between the two. But then, every time I did that, the car's owner woudl tell me "well I never got around to tuning the carb as good as it could be" - with EFI, the tuning part is SIMPLE. It's debugging and installation that take up all of your time.

[38P]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

It boils down to development costs, time and risk.

It was the same thing with turbocharging in drag racing. It took years for it to firmly catch on, despite clear "on-paper" engineering advantages.

Probably the best way to encourage EFI is to put it in a separate class for a few years. Then pro builders will have less risk and more financial incentives to develop EFI combinations. It might even encourage other builders to step up.

And as long as EFI builds are relying on converted carb intakes and "single stage" intakes, the full potential will not be realized.

[38P]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

500 hp ? you know you can do that with a 2500 dollar 350 ? every mod motor racing has boost
I have seen enogh of the innards of a mod motor from working on used cars to say , they are better than a cad 4100 , but just barely

Actually it was closer to 600 with fairly mild cams. Pick up a copy of Engine Masters. Of course this "all motor" talk is passe considering that a turbo'd DOHC Modular can crest 1000 h.p. in street trim and upwards of 2000 in competition form. Just ask John Mihovetz.

(Most likely if EMC had a forced induction class, we'd see an explosion of EFI development for it)

There are plenty of NA Modulars running in Grand Am competition and other forms of motorsports. Sean Hyland can build them to outrageous levels (100+ h.p./liter).

Looking at the "innards" of a 200,000 mile taxi cab 2V 4.6 hardly establishes expertise on the build potential of DOHC Mod motors. That'd be about like saying one is an SBC expert by tearing down 267s and 305s.

Besides, as Freiburger wrote somewhere, there's a style element to hot rodding. Who wants to see another SBC? There isn't a more boring, over-done engine under the Sun. That's been part of the fun of the CHI-head Fords dominating EMC.

At least a DOHC modular looks and sounds like a proper racing mill (the hottest looking engine this side of a Boss 429), instead of something that came out of an antique tractor parted out on Craig's List. An SBC just screams "uncreative cheapskate."

[Matt Cramer]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

The rules don't really play to EFI's strengths, either. Not only is it just about WOT dyno pulls, but also the rules don't let you rework a carbed manifold for EFI. So you're limited to the commercially available EFI intakes that you can get for a motor if you want multiport injection. Unless you wanted to Yunnick the rules by casting a couple hundred copies of your own manifold design and sell them.

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

500 hp ? you know you can do that with a 2500 dollar 350 ? every mod motor racing has boost
I have seen enogh of the innards of a mod motor from working on used cars to say , they are better than a cad 4100 , but just barely

l

Actually it was closer to 600 with fairly mild cams. Pick up a copy of Engine Masters. Of course this "all motor" talk is passe considering that a turbo'd DOHC Modular can crest 1000 h.p. in street trim and upwards of 2000 in competition form. Just ask John Mihovetz.

(Most likely if EMC had a forced induction class, we'd see an explosion of EFI development for it)

There are plenty of NA Modulars running in Grand Am competition and other forms of motorsports. Sean Hyland can build them to outrageous levels (100+ h.p./liter).

Looking at the "innards" of a 200,000 mile taxi cab 2V 4.6 hardly establishes expertise on the build potential of DOHC Mod motors. That'd be about like saying one is an SBC expert by tearing down 267s and 305s.

Besides, as Freiburger wrote somewhere, there's a style element to hot rodding. Who wants to see another SBC? There isn't a more boring, over-done engine under the Sun. That's been part of the fun of the CHI-head Fords dominating EMC.

At least a DOHC modular looks and sounds like a proper racing mill (the hottest looking engine this side of a Boss 429), instead of something that came out of an antique tractor parted out on Craig's List. An SBC just screams "uncreative cheapskate."

lets see your ride

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

didn't BES SBC win the emc way back in 2007 ?
kaase has talent and a winning record , in actual "BIG" time ,boostless and squeezefree racing
unlike the others - he should be beating those guys
too bad other shops are busy with big time racing to make emc
do you think hendrick or richard childress would do good in such a contest ? how bout reher/morrison or WJ ?
EFI has proven too costly for most drag and oval trackers , with NO performance advantage
the 4.6 is a load , no matter what spzzta thinks , heck , mustangs only race each other and more than a few are sporting the bowtie under the hood , the LS is taking over , the metric hemi is a victim of benz style mustery monster electronics
they all run better with el cheapo carbs

[CDMBill]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

A casual review of recent EMC engines thanks to PHR shows massive modifications to the intake manifolds/intake ports and aftermarket carbs built by carb specialists, not "out of the box" Holleys.

As for modular Fords the 2V and 3V suffer from lack of displacement due to the too small bore centers. But ask yourself why they didn't allow the 4V head modulars? It because they would have won the first five spots or so and for th same reason the CHI headed Ford's are doing so well, its the best head allowed for its displacement.

Give the EFI guys a cylinder head/manifold optionas well scienced out as the SBC or CHI?Clevelands and watch the standings change.

[JeffMcKC]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

LOL the "Rules" will continue to make this nothing more than a Freak Show, but like all Freak Shows you just have to look :o

[revolutionary]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

First, let's all just agree that the 2v mod motor is about the ugliest thing on the planet. big plastic valve covers = turd.

My suggestion to the EMC rules comittee for 2010 is the use of modified carb intakes for use with injectors and also the use of multiple throttle bodies. Those would allow a tunnel ram, dual 4500 style injected engine that would be more of a direct correlation to the carbed engines. I think those two changes would open up the EFI field more. I'd sure be more apt to at least try it. Then it would also be easy to bolt on a pair of carbs to actually see which one was truly better.

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

but speedster says that never works hahahah

see lots of excuses , but cold start driveability is not a part of the contest

for all the bluster , no results , as predicted
dulcich did the efi/carb test years ago and the carb won then too

[dieselgeek]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

but speedster says that never works hahahah

see lots of excuses , but cold start driveability is not a part of the contest

for all the bluster , no results , as predicted
dulcich did the efi/carb test years ago and the carb won then too

and yet, the highest horsepower racing engines all run EFI.... strange ???

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

[email protected]

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: NO EFI in EMC finals. ??

top fuel runs MECHANICAL - oh yeah 18 hp per cubic inch bro
top fuel makes the most power
thank you , come again