Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

[nitroracer]

I was on the fence about converting my Fairlane to fuel injection but when I went to start the car yesterday and the carb started puking fuel it made my decision to upgrade pretty easy. I was hoping to find an affordable way to do multiport fuel injection, but on the 351 my intake choices are limited to GT40 (expensive) and Truck/Van (too tall). To keep things budget friendly I am thinking about using a GM TBI from a 350 powered vehicle run by megasquirt, most likely MS I. At this point I only want to control the fuel and not the spark.

How much should I budget for a project like this?
I have seen a few conversions using the mechanical fuel pump to supply an in-line electric pump, good idea?
How crucial is the wideband oxygen sensor, and can a OEM wideband (ex. VW) be used?

Victim:

[dieselgeek]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

Cool project!


I'll start off with a few answers: the wideband O2 sensor isn't all that necessary. For a naturally aspirated application, it's a "nice to have" more than anything. A cheap $9 narrowband sensor would plug directly into any MS variant and work just fine.

You CAN use the VW part, but you also needa wideband controller for it. Best/cheapest bet (that's popular) is an LC1 from Innovate. But again, not all that necessary. You could start with a tune from someone's similar setup (hint: SilverBuick) and the narrowband O2 sensor should get you the rest of the way there. At least, far better than the carb tuneup.

So that knocks a few hundred bucks off your budget, right away.


Re: fuel system, I'll let other guys with experience speak to that particular issue. I've seen all the methods work... I like Randal's implementation of a surge tank to keep things simple.


Especially for fuel-only control, all you need is a "tach signal" - either a coil negative, or an MSD (or other CDI box) tach output, will work just fine. Then you need a coolant temp sensor, an intake air temp sensor, and 1-bar manifold pressure sensor - all junkyard items, cheap and easy to find. The TPS sensor will be part of the TBI (as will the fuel pressure regulator).

I sorta think you should give strong consideration to MPFI, but the TBI will work for you I think, as long as the combo is pretty mild.

[Russell]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

There is an adaptor to put the HO upper on a truck lower it is $100 from http://www.bcbroncos.com/fuelefi.html Don't know if that is in budget or will fit under the hood.

I look forward to see what you do with this!

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

Quoted from my Thunderbird Project Car Thread. Being my first MS project I ran into a few hiccups in the wiring, and an issue with the megasquirt I assembled, shorted something in the power circuit and a possible issue in the comm circuit, the second MS I assembled works like a champ though! I've repaired the power circuit issue, and that's when I ran into a maintaining communication with the lap top while the engine is running issue. I'm sure the comm issue is correctable, I just haven't gotten around to troubleshooting it properly.

The Grocery list.

Parts list?

So far it's consisted of a DIYautotune shopping cart of:
$187 - MS1
$65 - MapDaddy 4bar Map Sensor(optional),
$64 - Relay Board(optional/recommended),
$70 - Relay Board cable(optional/recommended),
$40 - Wiring harness (optional/recommended) and
$199 - LC-1 Wideband O2 Controller(optional/recommended)
$20 - Serialport to USB connector

$65 - I'll Add the JimStim(the upgraded Stim) since I was looking at the bill.

Then a parts store:
$35 electric fuel pump,
Some rubber and metal fuel lines,
Then a few nickel and dime plumbing and electrical connectors/wires.

A junkyard special coolant and air temperature sensors and pigtails.

Then an ebay find $250 670cfm Holley TBI and purchasing of corresponding adapter plates to fit the square board (Q-jet to squarebore adapter and a free plate of steel drilled to a TBI pattern to Q-jet pattern).

This thing is lucky to do a burn out in water, but I'll see what I can do

I added the costs to my previous post (Matt or Jerry, why does the relay board cable cost more than the board ???)

$710 from DIYautotune,

Plus about another $350 in TBI and other miscellaneous parts for a total of

$1060.

I already had the JimStim and Serial Port adapter from the MS I bought for the Skylark, so being an additional car knocks the cost down to just under a grand. The wiring was far simpler than I thought it would be, but rather than buy stock of several different color wires the labelled harness made it one package. The MapDaddy is very optional in my opinion, especially for naturally aspirated vehicles, it does allow though for real time barometric corrections, which under normal driving conditions is pretty useless, but on my long commutes from Ely to California to optimize fuel mileage over a 3,000'+ feet drop/increase in elevation between shutting the engine down to reset the baro I think it's good for me (the Skylark should really need it as I plan on 5,000'+ changes in elevation between engine shut offs).

If I were going to do a cheap commuter car that didn't need any frills I'd probably just get the $187 MS1, relay board and cable, then junkyard a narrowband O2 sensor(or cough up the $20), Coolant Sensor, air temperature sensor and assemble the wiring harness myself for a cost of $321 +misc stuff and Junkyard TBI.

Some work I did to get a GM TBI throttle to work with the Ford's throttle.

Whoo hoo! BluLightning Bob sent me a throttle base plate for an Autolite carb so I could yank the throttle bracket stuff off it for the TBI. The TBI had the standard GM bracket set up for a TV cable and such. This meant that the C6 kickdown wasn't hooked up and on top of that the throttle cable geometry was so messed up I was lucky to get maybe 1/2 throttle when the pedal was on the floor. But now..... ;D

The base plate he sent me. All I need is the brackets on the left.


Two screws sheared off, two came right out, and the shaft slide out with no drama.


So I thought this thing was semi-riveted on, and would take a dremel grinder to it to remove the shaft...After grinding on it for a minute or so, I noticed there was a C-clip on the backside next to the spring. Popped that out and wasn't sure if my grinding was needed or not, but it didn't hurt anything.


Few taps with the punch and it came right off.


The parts I needed. Throttle cable bracket, Spacer and the transmission kickdown bracket. The spacer and kickdown bracket needed some reaming with a drill to fit over the Holley shaft, wasn't much, but it needed just a bit.


The slot on the Autolite bracket was a tad smaller than on the holley, so the dremel tool was used to widen it up a bit.



The throttle linkage all hooked up :D I adjusted the kickdown screw to where I think it should be and will adjust as needed from there. (Don't worry, I hooked up the return spring after this picture was taken)


Sorry for the blurry picture. This shows the WOT, couldn't do that before.




Now I need to go hook up the LC-1 grounds and re-calibrate the TPS sensor and I should be good to go ;D Thanks Bob, you really made my day ;D

Page 1 of the thread. Lots of pictures got zapped my a sudden disappearance of my FTP site >

http://www.bangshift.com/forum/index.php?topic=4933.0

[nitroracer]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

Cool project!
Especially for fuel-only control, all you need is a "tach signal" - either a coil negative, or an MSD (or other CDI box) tach output, will work just fine. Then you need a coolant temp sensor, an intake air temp sensor, and 1-bar manifold pressure sensor - all junkyard items, cheap and easy to find. The TPS sensor will be part of the TBI (as will the fuel pressure regulator).

I sorta think you should give strong consideration to MPFI, but the TBI will work for you I think, as long as the combo is pretty mild.

The engine I have in the car isn't a power house, but its not as old stocker either. I have a 84' Bronco 351 block, GT40 heads from a lightning, a weiand stealth intake, and comp cams 268H, and a crane points conversion kit in the distributor. Should I give MPFI some more thought?


TheSilverBuick, what kind of fuel pump are you running?

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

I run the stock mechanical to a surge tank(pipe), then a ~$30 lifetime warrantied Autozone Universal TBI (12psi) pump to the TBI from the surge tank(pipe). I do worry about hitting the limits of the injector's duty cycle at upper rpm, but I have to clean up some noise in my electrical system to truely determine how close I am. I think I'm running 85lb/hr injectors, but I actually haven't verified that....Could be 75, 85 or 95 lb/hr injectors. Figured I'd run what I have and if I run out of injector figure it out and/or see if I could bump the regulator pressure (at which point I maybe cheap pump limited).

Interesting fact, the car will idle on the stock mechanical pump, I want to get it dialed in a bit better to see if I put a ball valve on the return line (from the surge tank not the tbi) if I could get up to and drive highway speeds off the mechanical pump in the event the electrical one fails.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

Another quote from my thread. My surge tank(pipe) is hiding between the two vacuum resivoirs and under the cruise control stuff. Then you can see my Universal electric fuel pump mounted on the pad that the A/C compressor is supposed to go on. It'll have to move when ever I get around to getting the A/C actually working.

Alright, just about ready to fire up! (and it's snowing :P). All the hardware and wiring is done and figured this would be a good time to take a break and eat lunch and check the Megasquirt settings, particularly the injector impedance settings. I forget if these are high or low, so I'll be looking it up and setting the software accordingly. Unlike the Skylark, I'm using the stock mechanical fuel pump to feed the surge pipe tank, so it's going to take some cranking initially to get it to prime. The mechanical pump has to fill the new fuel filter, then as it pours to the bottom of the surge can the electric pump should start picking it up, and once there is enough fuel to fill the TBI feed and return lines it should start up Not sure how long that will take though.... Hopefully not long.

With the surge pipe tank painted black it blends right in. ;D


Another over view picture. You can see the first fuel filter just to the right of the radiator cap, and the second one just after the electric fuel pump.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

Should I give MPFI some more thought?

If you can do it on the cheap, I'd say YES. Opens you up to be able to run a stupid crazy cam that would have a carb tuning expert in fits, acting like an OEM bumpstick with the EFI tuning. This doesn't work with the TBI, though.

But, one part of me really likes the idea that you're willing to do it one step at a time. You'll be glad that you committed to "fuel only" at first. Take small bites and you'll have an easier time with the whole project.

It sounds like you and Randal are on similar pages/budgets. His advice is going to be better than mine. I told him he has to pay it forward to the next noob. You came along at the right time!

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

Should I give MPFI some more thought?

If you can do it on the cheap, I'd say YES. Opens you up to be able to run a stupid crazy cam that would have a carb tuning expert in fits, acting like an OEM bumpstick with the EFI tuning. This doesn't work with the TBI, though.

But, one part of me really likes the idea that you're willing to do it one step at a time. You'll be glad that you committed to "fuel only" at first. Take small bites and you'll have an easier time with the whole project.

It sounds like you and Randal are on similar pages/budgets. His advice is going to be better than mine. I told him he has to pay it forward to the next noob. You came along at the right time!

The TBI limitations on fuel delivery do suck for big engines :-\ Small engines they're almost a no brainer to use for me. After doing both, it's really a push for me on which is simpler. The TBI is no doubt cheaper (with the throttle body, fuel pressure regulator and injectors self contained vs. purchasing piece meal), but it also has it's limitations. I want to try an ultra cheap MPI EFI system on my Centurion by drilling my own injector ports on an edelbrock intake and using an old carb with a string TPS as the throttle body, but that's down the road some. The T-bird is a cruiser with a stock cam (rated at 345 non-sae HP). The multiport definately has some advantages in the cam selection too. I'm getting around 2inHg more vacuum at idle on a single plane intake at 6500ft elevation, than people are getting with the same cam/compression with a dual plane intake and a carb at lower elevation. The T-bird pulls an unholy amount of vacuum, even at this elevation, which works well with the TBI and vacuum accessories.

If there was a junkyard source for a multi-port efi intake for the FE engine I'd probably of gone that route, snag the fuel rails, regulator and throttle body from the junkyard (along with appropriate sensors), get injectors of appropriate size, and go! Unless of course the cfm requirements aren't there from the OEM. The GM TBI I got is rated at 670 cfm which is more than the factory 600cfm Autolite 4300.

I did the Skylark's stepwise. First fuel, then timing off a GM 7-pin module, then all out timing controls straight off the pickup coil in the distributor.

[Matt Cramer]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

Our experience has been that MPFI setups have measurably better fuel distribution than TBI, but TBI still has some noticeable drivability improvements over a carb. And like Randal said, TBIs are hard to find cheap in large sizes - although 4-bbl Holley Pro-Jections aren't too hard to find used.

[fast Ed]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

Sometimes on eBay the marine versions of the GT40 351W intake set will come up for sale cheap ... they are the same as the Lightning version, but cast iron rather than aluminium.


cheers
Ed N.

[min301]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-...#ht_500wt_1182


lookie what I found...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/351W-...#ht_3561wt_939

[BulldawgMusclecars]

Re: Budget EFI on a 351W Ford

Why not just wled injector bungs to the Weiand intake you have, drill them, add fuel rails and injectors, and use an elbow that will bolt to your intake and accept a Ford-style monoblade throttle body? Grab an EEC-IV setup off a Bronco, including the distributor, and you could have multiport on the cheap.

I was on the fence about converting my Fairlane to fuel injection but when I went to start the car yesterday and the carb started puking fuel it made my decision to upgrade pretty easy. I was hoping to find an affordable way to do multiport fuel injection, but on the 351 my intake choices are limited to GT40 (expensive) and Truck/Van (too tall). To keep things budget friendly I am thinking about using a GM TBI from a 350 powered vehicle run by megasquirt, most likely MS I. At this point I only want to control the fuel and not the spark.

How much should I budget for a project like this?
I have seen a few conversions using the mechanical fuel pump to supply an in-line electric pump, good idea?
How crucial is the wideband oxygen sensor, and can a OEM wideband (ex. VW) be used?

Victim: