The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

Started and ran fine but still no pressure on the gauge for the oil. Since I'm running this solo I can't be in both places while I run it with the primer which delivers a known 50psi of oil. Need to recruit some help for that one. Also the fan came on when I grounded the supposed switched 12V relay power. It definitely sounded less tappety today but I had run almost 1.5gal worth of oil through the primer and into the engine through the main feed port. My only thought is that the anti drainback on the filter was closing and preventing the primer from pushing it up to the pump.

First go, it starts right at the end of the video as the camera cuts off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPqw7XULBpY

Second try where she hydrolocked on me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkS8OWYP2ic

Today's start and run. Not the best idle but she did stumble and recover on her own. Unfortunately still no oil pressure and I accidentally recorded over the datalog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LigYM0AJuIU

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

Slept on it and got an email back from the relay vendor about something being wrong if grounding that wire turned on the fan.
I'm going to pull the output line off of the oilpump and run the oil feed off of the primer in there and do the same routine of 20s on the primer, then rotate the crank backwards 30deg or so till I get oil out the drain plug. This is a lot of oil to be putting through the engine (~7qts in the primer and 9qts in changing it twice) and it's not even really had a true break in session. If this doesn't work I'm going to be in trouble as it means my custom gerotor pump isn't working. There's really only 1 more step I can do before the engine would have to loose its front cover.
Going to have to fiddle with the WBO2 as well as I got it to data log on it's own scanner but lost the input stream to the HPTuners datalogger.

I've got just over 2 weeks to have it running well enough to put on a trailer for cross country shipping!

[dieselgeek]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

You are in the thick of the thrash!!

to me, this is ALWAYS the hardest part about "tuning" - getting the bugs worked out. I love this part, it separates the men from the internet posters. I have to hand it to you for combining severe engineering talent with greasy fingernails and scuffed knuckles.


That being said: the "hydrolocking" thing would concern me. Injector phasing shouldn't make more than a slightly noticeable difference, but maybe the cam phasing was causing an ignition timing problem? That startup sounded more like a "too advanced when cranking" ignition than it did hydrolocking. That, or a single injector might have been leaking... just my $.02 but it's hard to diagnose from youtube!

Wish you lived down the street from me. I'd be camped out in your garage helping however i could!

Loving this project,
-Scott

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

I think I did have a leaky injector as the pressure would fall to 0 pretty quickly but now it will hold ~50psi for at least 10 min without the pump running. That might have been part of the problem because the pump is manually controlled for now. What did you think of yesterday's video?

[dieselgeek]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

What did you think of yesterday's video?

I didn't think it would run AT ALL so... at this point, everything I see is kickass and WAAAY beyond my own expectations!

I gave you a lot of crap early on, but it looks like this is going to work. I proudly eat crow on this project.

Keep working through the bugs - don't let them get you down - soon this will be one of the coolest DIY EFI projects out there IMO

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

See if I can convince the wife to let me take a crack at the oil pump tonight and have a chance to really run it AND NOT ERASE THE DATALOG. I could always go back to the L67 timing table or see if I need to add anything to the start retard table if it really turns out to be an ignition problem.

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

Oil Problem Solved!!! Pull the pump outlet fitting and packed it with petroleum jelly then hooked up the primer and had the Shirt (unit first sargeant and one of the few other gearheads in it the unit, has a 61 T-bird he's restoring) run the primer at really low speed while I cranked the crank over backwards around 3 times and watched the oil coming out of the drain plug. Got good flow pretty quickly and just didn't stop till I was sure I had plenty of oil in the pump. Put everything back together and since I was running out of time for the second set of eyes I just hopped in and fired it up. 75psi after around 10sec maybe less since the pump had to pressurize the lines, filter, and oil cooler before hitting the pressure sensor. We just kept running it for around 10 min till the oil spill from an old leak in the valve covers puddled on top of one of the manifold flanges caught fire and I killed it and put the fire out.

She hunts at idle but will recover from a snap throttle closure. The tune is obviously off but too much stuff was smoking from getting hot for the first time to really do a "sniff" test on the exhaust. She was sluggish on the throttle responce as well but the exhaust sounded good. Baby nap time trumped all other attempts to make a video and datalog of the car tonight and I'm out of town till Sunday night and will do my best to get a video then, maybe even put her in gear and see if the transmission (which is used) works. Definitely need to run another 15min or so then change the oil and I'm debating doing a datalog till the 1st start smoke stops and I can sit in the car and watch what is going on.

Very very pleased and can't wait to dig into the tune to get her truly running properly!

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

Whoo Hoo!

[dieselgeek]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

Hell yeah!!!

Do you have a wideband O2 sensor installed? Try not to get a lot of fuel or oil or water on the sensor, if it's burning oil... but, my guess is you're probably just a little on the lean side, which isn't going to hurt anything in the garage, unloaded (better than being too rich)


Curious how much vacuum it's pulling, what the system voltage shows, if your CLT and MAT look normal, etc. Usually at this point, I check all those inputs before I start tuning. Did you get a log captured this time?

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

Nothing doing this evening Liam (my son) does not travel easily so we are dead tired and so is he from the trip. I'm going to data log this time but I'm not having good luck getting it to log some of the "extra" stuff like system voltage and the oil pressure for some reason. I have a JAW wideband and yes it's installed. I don't think it's burning oil as the exhaust was pretty clean except for what looked like water blown out of one tailpipe when she started. The WBO2 is mounted high up in the downpipe and around 2 o'clock position right in front of the narrow band sensor. I plan on pulling it out before the next start to do another free air calibration on it. I'm not sure if I try to datalog on the sensors software at the same time as the HPTuners if it stops outputting but I didn't get a data stream last time I tried.

The MAP, CLT, and system voltage looked good before I started it as did the IAT. The TPS went from 0 to 100% so it looks like I've got solid signal there too. Next time I'll get her started then start the log. It also appears that my CEL is working properly but my Oil pressure/level warning light isn't. Haven't tried to switch it to run with the pan empty to check the level light function but the pressure definitely isn't working. I would think even an unplugged sensor would trigger it but no light.

[HoosierGTA]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

Other than fuel preasure, I only know about a 1/8 of what you and Scott are talking about buy I am very happy that you've got oil preasure and it runs and your happy. Congrats on the progress.

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

I've been pretty dead on this since we had to go to Dayton last weekend for a wedding and that shot the Snert's (my son's nickname) sleep schedule for the first few days. After that the wife got sick so I was keeping the Snert when I wasn't at work so no work there. Tonight I got the fans fixed and then headed in for bath time with the Snert. Turns out I was wiring the fans with a positive trigger while the relay block I had was setup for a negative trigger. Had to pull the fan harness and one of the ECM harness pieces apart and cut and resplice the wires in together. Haven't tested it but per the maker of the relay block and me going over the wiring diagram it "should" we'll see tomorrow as I'm going to run it up to temp and see if the fan comes on while I'm completing my break in loop. Also going to see if I can't get a good datalog. If it's not too smokey I'll play around with the settings on the logger till while I run the rest of the loop.

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

Bad Oil Leaks!!! both valve covers are leaking large amounts of oil onto the headers and I'm lucky that I didn't have a bigger fire! Giving up on the Permadry's and going to try the rubber gaskets first then if they leak do the corks with spay copper tonight.

DG, need help as my tuning is not up to speed so I need a direction to go. I got glowing manifold when running it up around 2500-3000rpm for 10-15 sec and she's still running NA so no boost. I'm thinking that means either too much fuel or not enough timing. Which way should I start adjusting things?

Thanks,

[dieselgeek]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

Bad Oil Leaks!!! both valve covers are leaking large amounts of oil onto the headers and I'm lucky that I didn't have a bigger fire! Giving up on the Permadry's and going to try the rubber gaskets first then if they leak do the corks with spay copper tonight.

DG, need help as my tuning is not up to speed so I need a direction to go. I got glowing manifold when running it up around 2500-3000rpm for 10-15 sec and she's still running NA so no boost. I'm thinking that means either too much fuel or not enough timing. Which way should I start adjusting things?

Thanks,

Since we're flying kinda blind, I'd make simple marks on the balancer/whatever for EACH cylinder (3 marks) and then start looking at timing on each jug. Most of the time, it's too little timing advance that causes the glowing headers, followed by fuel quantity.

I'd check each cylinder just to make sure they're in the ballpark. There's a lot of opportunity for getting your wires crossed in an installation this complex - it's always worth a double and triple check.

I would try to mimic in your tune, what the 4.1 engine wanted for timing - probably mid 20s total at idle is where I'd start.

Find out how much your ACTUAL timing is off, if any, from your "commanded" timing (what the computer thinks it's doing).

Once you know for sure what the ignition is doing, and that it's where you believe it is, then I'd move on to fuel. Only run it in short bursts - the glowing exhausts means your exhaust valves are getting cooked also...

keep us posted!

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: The '64 Buick Riviera 4.1L LC2 Turbo6 run by L67 3800 EFI System

Ok, I'm out of time on this. I'm going to have to eat the cost of shipping a "non running" car to CO because there is no way I can get it done between packing my stuff for the move, taking care of the Snert, training my 2 replacements and going through an inspection at work. I'm not throwing in the towel by a long shot but I'm not letting something that is currently this finicky into the hands of someone I don't know to be driven while it's in transit. Need to hurry on the shipping arrangements because if they don't get it before I leave I'm going to have to relocate it to somewhere with a flat driveway.