EFI for a zetec

[98ciHemi]

So, for a full one build where should I start? I can only afford MS, probably MS2. My big question are related to intake design and injector placement, since before anything else I will need an intake. Thinking that the OEM intake will support my power level is pretty much a pipe dream, so I think this would be a chance for me to practice my oxy-acetylene aluminum skills. What are the pro's and cons of common plenum intake versus four throttle bodies?

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: EFI for a zetec

I don't know what the OEM intake looks like. There is simplicity with a single throttle body. At WOT I think runner length will be important, but after a certain length a common plenum is probably fine. Especially with a dry flow intake (discounting reversion). Lacking any sophicated testing and dyno time, injector placement can probably be similar to stock unless someone (*cough* Bob *cough*) has good input.

I'll be watching your intake building, as I may be making my own for my L6.

[JeffMcKC]

Re: EFI for a zetec

Well I am for a plenum and if its the right lenght primary tubes and right plenum size you will get a wave tune that will increase your power ( I call this the water hammer effect)

I also think if you make the primary tubes out of tubes with o-rings tha fit into cups then you could change tube lenghts easy to fine tune it and plenum spacer the throttle body for the same reason. ( Big hidden VE here)

youtube making a intake ( a guy shows how to make the plate that goes to the head with a wood router) and counter sink for o-rings just make the plenum a rectangle ( the tube flange thicker counter sunk with o-rings) and mount the trottle body on top

[Matt Cramer]

Re: EFI for a zetec

Separate throttle bodies give faster response, but a set of four of them that will flow enough air to support 300 hp won't be cheap - motorcycle throttle bodies probably won't cut it. I'd probably use a plenum-runner design, but with very short runners. The stock Zetec manifold curves the way it does to make long runners in an effort to boost low RPM torque.

[JeffMcKC]

Re: EFI for a zetec

Once he gets his cam head and short block on paper and settled we can get a very good starting point for the size taper on runners and plenum size and header size and lenght from Pipemax I will be happy to run some things for him and if he has some cam grinds to see how the work out too

[dieselgeek]

Re: EFI for a zetec

As an aside, for the EFI part, I don't think there is really that much to it.


Zetec engines come with a built in crank sensor that's plug & play compatible with any of the 3 megasquirt versions. Form the cheap end, a simple MS1-Extra setup will drive wasted spark ignition. Engine Computer: under $300

Walt, if you're looking to have great ignition for cheap, you can find Mitsubishi wasted spark coilpacks in the junkyards on Hyundais, Mitsus, Chryslers, etc. We've used these on street engines making more than 35psi of boost - they'll light your fires more than adequately and last for years. Thus, Ignition = Free.

For injectors, a set of four 50 pounders will work fine, however you could get creative and go with 8 smaller injectors - those are still OEM sized and you might be able to find a set of those for free. If not, certailny cheap. Have them flow tested for $30 to confirm they're good - problem solved. Injectors = very cheap for 8, under $300 for a set of 4 aftermarket/race injectors. Flow test any used ones and make sure they're healthy.

300hp fuel pump is no problem, use a Ford inline high pressure pump. MSD has a version they sell for less than $100 but you can find them at auto parts stores brand new for $75 or less. You will need to find a regulator, could maybe make an OEM one work but I'd recommend getting a new aftermarket unit. Fuel supply: $300 or less.

Wideband, an LC1 is under $200 and you need this no matter what induction you choose.

[JeffMcKC]

Re: EFI for a zetec

I use a power products fuel regulator new 75.00 I think

[98ciHemi]

Re: EFI for a zetec

There are a few things I am more than willing to spend money on. I am sure there are some quality parts from china and junkyards, but if I am going to haul my butt and the car out to b-ville, it's not going to be on unknown parts. New injectors, with a spare in the toolbox. For either induction setup I might go for the JY coilpacks. I can get enough of those cheaply to have a full set of spares over the cost of aftermarket. If I use a non-aftermarket fuel pump, it will be bought from an OEM supplier, not a parts store. Aftermarket regulator is not biggie either. I don't plan on this being a cheap build. I don't want to throw money into it, but if I get out to Bonneville I don't want to be sidelined because I was trying to get by with so-so parts and save a buck. It would waste a lot of money to get there and have something simple break that I cannot replace on the fly.

For the intake, I was thinking that using a .25" aluminum flange with the 1" long tubes welded onto it for the lower. For the upper intake, either ITBs or an aluminum plenum. I can't think of a reason that I couldn't oxy acetylne weld either of those parts. To mate them, I was thinking silicon sleeves that I can adjust the length of to tune it.

[98ciHemi]

Re: EFI for a zetec

Separate throttle bodies give faster response, but a set of four of them that will flow enough air to support 300 hp won't be cheap - motorcycle throttle bodies probably won't cut it. I'd probably use a plenum-runner design, but with very short runners. The stock Zetec manifold curves the way it does to make long runners in an effort to boost low RPM torque.

A note on motorcycle throttle bodies. The 46mm Hayabusa tbs in the zetec build quoted earlier should have about the same flow one 92 mm throttle body.

23*23=529
529*4=2116
Sqrt(2116)=46
46*2=92

[dieselgeek]

Re: EFI for a zetec

that seems like a solid plan. From experience: it's far better to have nine spares of something you don't trust (junkyard parts), than it is to have a broken, badass aftermarket part. I took enough dirt cheap Megasquirts on Drag Week 2005 to EFI the entire field of cars. Never needed a single part

Also, I just talked with Jarred, my turbo Zetec pal who seems to know what he's doing with these engines. He just got his running with MS. Email is inis@kctuners dot com and he's expecting you.

[Matt Cramer]

Re: EFI for a zetec

Separate throttle bodies give faster response, but a set of four of them that will flow enough air to support 300 hp won't be cheap - motorcycle throttle bodies probably won't cut it. I'd probably use a plenum-runner design, but with very short runners. The stock Zetec manifold curves the way it does to make long runners in an effort to boost low RPM torque.

A note on motorcycle throttle bodies. The 46mm Hayabusa tbs in the zetec build quoted earlier should have about the same flow one 92 mm throttle body.

23*23=529
529*4=2116
Sqrt(2116)=46
46*2=92

Yes, but independent throttle bodies also need more air flow since it's not a continuous flow (unless you're putting them on a plenum!). On a four cylinder, most of the intake strokes occur separately, so the peak air flow rate through each independent throttle body will be very close to the average air flow rate through a single throttle body. IIRC, the Hayabusa is around 180 hp - it's likely the throttle bodies will be too restrictive for 300.

[dieselgeek]

Re: EFI for a zetec

Walt, one thing to remember that I don't think many of the guys here can give REAL advice on - and I can only give a little (and this is where my concern for EFI versus Carb use on this engine comes in):

At the specific output you are seeking, you will be facing SERIOUS induction tuning challenges. The kind we faced on the Engine Masters engine, which is also what motivates guys like Gene Adams (top MFI / nitro tuner and engine builder) seek an EFI solution because their IR, individual Weber carb setup couldn't cope with the *massive* reversion issues.

I'm betting you're going to want to go with an IR intake and not a plenum, although JeffMcKC's combo is somewhat radical and seems to work good. IR intakes on EFI can be easier to deal with these issues than plenums IMO, however there ARE guys who take those reversion pulses and time them to be pressure pulses during IVO events. I am told this is less of a benefit on 4-cylinder engines where you have half the frequency of pulses to work with compared to a v8.

Consider taking a look at what Larry Widmer from EnDyn is doing. He's making 420hp in STREET TRIM with small 4 cylinder, 16-valve Honda engines. His knowledge is where you'd need to be if you're any kind of serious, IMO.

Just $.02 more to keep you going. Keep saving those pennies!

[horsewidower]

Re: EFI for a zetec

Here is a great read on some of the issues associated with IR designs.

http://www.profblairandassociates.com/pdfs/RET_Bellmouth_Sept.pdf

And a truly excellent read about engine design.

http://www.profblairandassociates.com/pdfs/Back_to_basics.pdf

I would suggest that your intake design can't be optimized until you give the info to Jeff that he needs to run pipemax ( a great program that you can buy here:
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/pipemax36xp2.htm , a $45 investment that should probably be your first expenditure, instead of parts)

[horsewidower]

Re: EFI for a zetec

Intake building supplies:

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: EFI for a zetec

Getting minorly off topic here. Can you setup an MS through like a GPIO or maybe on board to run a linear actuator or something and make the intake runner lengths telescope (i.e. change lengths) based on an rpm dependent equation or table? Then you could pipemax model your intake lengths as a function of rpm and then tune the engine response based on the model as a starting point?

Intake building supplies:

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/

Definately bookmarking that site for either the plenum of my Turbo6 or the whole intake I'm thinking for the Nailhead.