Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

[dieselgeek]

I do not understand "heat" from a spark ignition system. Why not run on glow plugs if that's the goal?

Spark is spark. It can either jump the plug gap or not, based on cylinder pressure. It's really that simple.

As for the IGN1-A coils, they can draw up to 22amps per ignition event, each. How many amps does a 44-amp Magneto draw "per event" ? I've never seen MSD rate them this way either.

My suggestion is to not try to take the concept of ignition too seriously. Once you've observed a pressure chamber test, it becomes clear what's important in an ignition system.

[A/Fuel]

Where is the timing at on a A/fuel car, is it so far ahead your jerking the crank that much?

A typical car on an avarage track would probably have around 50* at the hit then ramp it up to 65 in about 2 seconds. I think using a 6-shooter might be part of the problem.....trying to do it in about 4 moves. Obviously the MSD programable ignition would solve that. I've been trying to get my boss to get one of those for a long time.

[dieselgeek]

A typical car on an avarage track would probably have around 50* at the hit then ramp it up to 65 in about 2 seconds. I think using a 6-shooter might be part of the problem.....trying to do it in about 4 moves. Obviously the MSD programable ignition would solve that. I've been trying to get my boss to get one of those for a long time.

but remember that your timing is bouncing all over the place at WOT - have you tested the 50-65 versus staying at maybe 60 to see if there's a difference in the incremental times?

[dieselgeek]

Also, a 44-amp mag is using Capacitive discharge. I wonder if the much longer spark of the Inductive IGN1-A coils will translate into "way more heat" - the inductive spark lasts waaaaaay longer than the short CDI spark. This might be worth trying especially considering you can put together a test system for relatively few dollars. Danny Miller had me working on a Junior Fueler ignition system based on the same setup before he passed.

[A/Fuel]

but remember that your timing is bouncing all over the place at WOT - have you tested the 50-65 versus staying at maybe 60 to see if there's a difference in the incremental times?

Yeah, you can unplug the crank triggers and just plug the mags in, we call it running off the mags. Where ever the timing is set on the mags is what it is. It really bounces around on just the mags.
You have to try and leave with the most timing you think you can get away with without smoking the tires, and ramp it in the same way. 60 at the hit would most likely smoke the tires anywhere other than Denver, and leaving it set at 50 all the way down would be very dissappointing. Most a/fuel engines probably make the most power at around 68 or so. It's directly related to the volume of fuel though. At around 28-30 gpm it seems to take more advance than you would need at say 25-26 gpm. While I don't have any real data on my camaro just yet, it doesn't seem to make any more power if I take the timing from 34 to 40. I'm theorizing that since the volume of fuel is so small compared to an a/fuel engine that it doesn't take as long to heat the charge, and requires less heat.

[dieselgeek]

Maybe we should just make an effort to stabilize the *actual* ignition timing even with the mag system you have. This is the Digital Hot Rod era... I'd really like a crack at your car with my VOM and O-scope.

[A/Fuel]

Also, a 44-amp mag is using Capacitive discharge. I wonder if the much longer spark of the Inductive IGN1-A coils will translate into "way more heat" - the inductive spark lasts waaaaaay longer than the short CDI spark. This might be worth trying especially considering you can put together a test system for relatively few dollars. Danny Miller had me working on a Junior Fueler ignition system based on the same setup before he passed.

Intresting....a jr fueler might have around 12 gpm to put it in perspective though. I would look into testing something like that out on my camaro. The nature of nitro, especially in huge volumes doesn't lend it's self to well to miss fires.
I hear what you're saying though as far as the CDI.

[JeffMcKC]

A typical car on an avarage track would probably have around 50* at the hit then ramp it up to 65 in about 2 seconds. I think using a 6-shooter might be part of the problem.....trying to do it in about 4 moves. Obviously the MSD programable ignition would solve that. I've been trying to get my boss to get one of those for a long time.

The new MS3 will ramp up also Geek has told me. They have made it in the box now.

[JeffMcKC]

Maybe we should just make an effort to stabilize the *actual* ignition timing even with the mag system you have. This is the Digital Hot Rod era... I'd really like a crack at your car with my VOM and O-scope.

Baby steps, this is what I would do trigger it with a MS3 and ramp up the timing with it.

[A/Fuel]

Maybe we should just make an effort to stabilize the *actual* ignition timing even with the mag system you have. This is the Digital Hot Rod era... I'd really like a crack at your car with my VOM and O-scope.

Oh I know.....I've been trying to preach this for years, it seems that even though people like to say they innovate they really don't try anything new.....Unless they see someone out there do it first.
I do have another car though, and I've taked to him about doing some new stuff and he seems open to some ideas. I know there is some hiden potential in the ignition system on these cars. I'm trying to grasp the situation myself. As soon as we get a handle on this new car I'd love to give you call and have you come out and see what you can do.

[A/Fuel]

Baby steps, this is what I would do trigger it with a MS3 and ramp up the timing with it.

Seems like a good approach to me.

[Bob Holmes]

Scott, first of all congratulations! Second, I think you answered your own question regarding the why of it. The ability to repeatably manage fuel and spark at the individual cylinder level across the dyno pull RPM range allowed you to level out those fascinating and sometimes scary variations in net effective AFR's by cylinder we've seen previously. The dynamic nature of each cylinder in a common plenum engine will demand the variations you gave it at a micro level. The native VE of the engine at each hole is similar but not identical and of course changes as the engine gains RPM.

The interesting question is what will happen at the track when the engine see several distinct acceleration rates. I would bet that a truly optimized tune would change gear by gear and realistically within the rpm range of each gear. I suspect the F1 guys have done this for some time and the quality of the MS3X box and software gives us glimpse of that.

Must be fun to be on frontiers of this stuff. You know what they say about pioneers.

Bill, you flat blow me away at times. Excellent summary.

[dieselgeek]

David Barton is rigging up the 8 O2 sensor system in Al Carpinielli's Drag Pak Challenger in the next couple days. We're scheduled for track time on May 12th. This should be pretty cool because we will see how much difference there is from dyno to track - the car's exhaust system I expect will be the major difference to cause wandering AFRs.

But I want to reiterate, the "other guy" also made the cylinder-to-cylinder AFRs balanced. My AFRs on each, matched his. We simply made more power, and I am crediting better hardware/software for this. Not tuning.

[BigBlockMopar]

Beautiful and interesting info in this topic. Almost contagious.
I'll be pulling the 'trigger' very soon and get myself a Megasquirt kit aswell.

[Bob Holmes]

A Fuel:

Can you please define "heat" within your context? Are you defining it as amps per ignition event?