Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

[dieselgeek]

the Auto Shop teacher at my kids new school that built a MegaSquirt over 8 years ago

Your kids shop teacher built a megasquirt before they were invented?

[AEM Devin]

It's probably not me you remember, but my customer. I know if it was *me* being told how bad Megasquirt sucks, you'd have remembered me. I promise.

As far as AEM not participating in the shootout, then who was it that made sure I was not allowed to see the AEM calibration before starting my own? Someone was sure interested in protecting the calibration that you imply was only basic. I have been told lots of things that contradict your statements here by people I trust - it's all hearsay and I don't actually care so, things are what they are. I was simply given a dyno sheet, told that the AEM calibration was under "nondisclosure" thus I couldn't use it as a reference point, and given a blank slate engine to tune. *SOMEONE* worked hard on the AEM tune because it was damn close to perfect. And since David told me he was optimizing per cylinder trims, what exactly do you mean by "advanced" features that weren't used? the only thing left is Injector phasing, and it wasn't worth the 7 hp (or 22 ft-lbs down low) we put on the AEM tune... it's a little sketchy to imply this wasn't a fair test. It was more than fair.

Also, it's good to see that AEM is changing their longstanding practice of sending out unfinished product (reference the firmware release histories of the Series 1 and Series 2 systems which I also have tuned for many years now). Maybe it would have been even better if they'd have shared at PRI that March 1st was an "estimate" because my customer was told "they go on sale March 1st." He was told other things I won't share here in an effort to keep this post from degrading beyond what it's already become.

Bottom line: I disagree with you that this test wasn't fair. I'm not super happy that AEM is here complaining about this post especially after some of the below-board practices I've observed firsthand. You guys should make sure that you have your best representation onsite if you want tests like this one to end in your favor. It's only 7hp and it's not like I posted "we kicked AEMs ass!" all over the internet.

Good day,
-Scott

Are you insinuating that I personally told Barton’s customer how bad Megasquirt sucks at PRI? So far from the truth if that’s the case. In over seven years being with AEM, I’ve never sold the product by putting down another product or person. Not once at a shop, at a trade show, at an event, or while consuming alcohol. Never! That’s absolutely not how I operate and it’s safe to say there’s hundreds of customers that will come in here to back that up.

As far as David Barton not showing off a customer’s tune… I think that’s about the most honorable and ethical thing that could have possibly happened and hats off to David for being so stand up. If I was the owner of a very competitive race car and found out my information was being broadcasted or shared to other people without my knowledge, I’d be livid!

This thread is about an ECU “shootout” and seven horsepower (approximately 1% difference). No one from AEM was invited or attended. I simply think it would be awesome if someone on the AEM side could join in next time and put up some fair competition. Can AEM bring a new Infinity box for the next round or is the decade old system mandatory?

[dieselgeek]

Are you insinuating that I personally told Barton’s customer how bad Megasquirt sucks at PRI?

My customer said he was made to feel like an idiot by AEM employees "ganging up on him" telling him specifically that Megasquirt was no good, he needed to step up to the Infinity system, and he was almost convinced to install it on his car. Almost. Why not? because he never heard me badmouth AEM or anyone else, and didn't like the vibe he was getting from either you or your coworkers. I'm not insinuating anything, I'm telling you how he was treated. Meanwhile, March 1st was the stated date, it came and went. I heard other people who's name you are dropping frequently complain that they had "engines lying around waiting on the new AEM stuff" - it's great that YOU are a stand up guy, but YOU are here representing AEM - not Devin Pearce (sp? sorry) - so the least of your coworkers set the standard for the whole company. That's how it works, and you know this.

As far as David Barton not showing off a customer’s tune… I think that’s about the most honorable and ethical thing that could have possibly happened and hats off to David for being so stand up. If I was the owner of a very competitive race car and found out my information was being broadcasted or shared to other people without my knowledge, I’d be livid!

David wasn't the one who didn't want to show me anything, it was the PROFESSIONAL CALIBRATION ENGINEER working on their AEM who required nondisclosure. Your claim that there was nobody anywhere onsite that knows anything about AEM, and that the tune on that engine was not very well sorted, is *beyond ridiculous.*

My suggestion is this: suck it up, because it was a perfectly fair shootout and you wouldn't be complaining about fairness or lack of representation if you'd have won. You or someone at AEM *would* get on the internet and broadcast the "Big Win" if it had happened in your favor, without a doubt. AEM already showed they're willing as a company to badmouth the competitors. I know you are a good guy but you know I'd get slaughtered online if we'd have lost any kind of similar shootout.

We might be able to arrange another shootout if that makes you happy. Bring your Infinity system if it's ready for sale at the time. Maybe we can get the guys who run this forum to set up an engine for us to test on. Who will the Calibrator be for AEM?

This thread is about an ECU “shootout” and seven horsepower (approximately 1% difference). No one from AEM was invited or attended. I simply think it would be awesome if someone on the AEM side could join in next time and put up some fair competition. Can AEM bring a new Infinity box for the next round or is the decade old system mandatory?

So let's sum up your main complaints since you began posting in this thread:

-Bartons tested using a decade old AEM system (nevermind that no newer system from AEM exists or was available for the test)
-the AEM system had no decent tuner representation (even though YOU have tuned on this very engine, and "some Pro" who tuned it afterwards, required nondisclosure)
-it was only a 1% gain in horsepower so no big deal


With all due respect, the above are EXCUSES. I am going to do my best to arrange an EFI shootout that DOES satisfy your requirements, but if I go through that, will you guys really show up? Let me know because personally, I view things like this as a learning experience. I even stated in my first post, I didn't show up expecting to do better, BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS ASKED TO DO.

[JeffMcKC]

I'm sure there is Sarcasm in this statement........Because I know if you ask people on the this side of the country who Scott Clark or DieselGeek is they look at you like your from a foreign country.......Hell the Auto Shop teacher at my kids new school that built a MegaSquirt over 8 years ago didn't even know who he was........... But in the tiny world of HotRod Magazine he's made a name for himself.........Self Proclaimed greatest tuner, he'll tell ya..........

TC you have shown the people yo hang with dont have a clue already that EFI even works only ofset wrist pins will make you go 300 mph with no other changes I would stay clear of trying to convince this guy your the smartest guy in the room

[TC]

Your kids shop teacher built a megasquirt before they were invented?

I rounded off...........

[AEM Devin]

My customer said he was made to feel like an idiot by AEM employees "ganging up on him" telling him specifically that Megasquirt was no good, he needed to step up to the Infinity system, and he was almost convinced to install it on his car. Almost. Why not? because he never heard me badmouth AEM or anyone else, and didn't like the vibe he was getting from either you or your coworkers. I'm not insinuating anything, I'm telling you how he was treated. Meanwhile, March 1st was the stated date, it came and went. I heard other people who's name you are dropping frequently complain that they had "engines lying around waiting on the new AEM stuff" - it's great that YOU are a stand up guy, but YOU are here representing AEM - not Devin Pearce (sp? sorry) - so the least of your coworkers set the standard for the whole company. That's how it works, and you know this.

I sincerely apologize on behalf of AEM if Barton’s customer felt he was ganged up on. That’s not how the company operates and someone screwed up big time if that’s the impression he left with. Representing AEM and the least set the standard… I agree with you on this.

David wasn't the one who didn't want to show me anything, it was the PROFESSIONAL CALIBRATION ENGINEER working on their AEM who required nondisclosure. Your claim that there was nobody anywhere onsite that knows anything about AEM, and that the tune on that engine was not very well sorted, is *beyond ridiculous.* .

David and I spoke about someone outside Ray Barton Racing requesting calibration information at one point and both of us collectively agreed it would be in the customer’s best interest not to. There was never a nondisclosure. It was a simple and short conversation. David held the key from that point forward and as I said before I think it’s incredibly stand up for him to keep his customer’s information private.

My suggestion is this: suck it up, because it was a perfectly fair shootout and you wouldn't be complaining about fairness or lack of representation if you'd have won. You or someone at AEM *would* get on the internet and broadcast the "Big Win" if it had happened in your favor, without a doubt. AEM already showed they're willing as a company to badmouth the competitors. I know you are a good guy but you know I'd get slaughtered online if we'd have lost any kind of similar shootout.

Not sure what I need to suck up. I simply think it would be great if one of the manufacturers being called out about a “shootout” could be there to also represent their product.

We might be able to arrange another shootout if that makes you happy. Bring your Infinity system if it's ready for sale at the time. Maybe we can get the guys who run this forum to set up an engine for us to test on. Who will the Calibrator be for AEM?

So let's sum up your main complaints since you began posting in this thread:

-Bartons tested using a decade old AEM system (nevermind that no newer system from AEM exists or was available for the test)
-the AEM system had no decent tuner representation (even though YOU have tuned on this very engine, and "some Pro" who tuned it afterwards, required nondisclosure)
-it was only a 1% gain in horsepower so no big deal
(even though YOU have tuned on this very engine, and "some Pro" who tuned it afterwards, required nondisclosure) (nevermind I beat your efforts in 3 hours and 18 pulls)

With all due respect, the above are EXCUSES. I am going to do my best to arrange an EFI shootout that DOES satisfy your requirements, but if I go through that, will you guys really show up? Let me know because personally, I view things like this as a learning experience. I even stated in my first post, I didn't show up expecting to do better, BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS ASKED TO DO. .

No excuses here. A shootout should involve representation from the company involved – no?

I’m honored and enjoying my newly provided title. I’ve ordered a “Professional Calibration Engineer” plaque for my desk and will alert the other employees of my status. That being said, if there is another shootout (with other representatives allowed in this time), I know we can find a very proficient AEM tuner out there that would be happy to attend and join in the fun.

[TC]

TC you have shown the people yo hang with dont have a clue already that EFI even works only ofset wrist pins will make you go 300 mph with no other changes I would stay clear of trying to convince this guy your the smartest guy in the room

Never said I was the smartest guy in the room, nor do I try to be the smartest guy in the room.......That is something that you made up inside of your head while reading my posts, it's your "perception" of me, basically you made me up to be this imaginary person that fits your beliefs, when in reality you have no idea who I am or what I'm all about or at that case what I've done............

But hey, Dream On...............

[TC]

AEM I know your new and are representing a company, but don't suck up to his ass, he's been doing this stuff for like 5 years tops, I remember when he first came to these forums and was green as hell, he's still learning and gets lucky sometimes, definitely not the all king of tuners as his arrogant ass comes across as...............

And DG what is wrong with you, can't you reply in a decent respectful manner or do you always got to come across as a dick.........

I've always said the attitude in a person posting reflects the way their life is going, and buy the way you've been posting Life must be pretty shitty right now...........

Seriously though, go get laid!!!!!.........

I wouldn't have even posted it if I didn't care........

[dieselgeek]

David and I spoke about someone outside Ray Barton Racing requesting calibration information at one point and both of us collectively agreed it would be in the customer’s best interest not to. There was never a nondisclosure. It was a simple and short conversation. David held the key from that point forward and as I said before I think it’s incredibly stand up for him to keep his customer’s information private.

So it was YOU who was overly concerned that no other tuners see your calibration on an engine that you claim you never really spent time tuning? It sure seems like you felt you had something to protect. Yet everywhere else you state that this engine "never really got the attention it deserved" and "AEM wasn't represented" Major confusion on my end - which is it, the AEM was running a "startup calibration" or was it running a tune that you demanded not be shown to other tuners? It's either one or the other.

Devin, all I can really suggest from this point forward to help keep yourself from getting into these "unknown shootout" situations is simply this: Treat EVERY tuning opportunity as though it's your own personal shootout. Realize that having YOUR system on ANY engine *IS YOUR REPRESENTATION* - don't make excuses for why you "could have" done better on the tune. Ray Barton Racing is one of the top racing engine builders in the country, I would NEVER show up there without being 100% prepared (i.e., my EMS wouldn't cause me a day of downtime because it was configured for a 4-cyl Honda by mistake). Whenever I set foot in anyone's garage or dyno shop, I treat it as a golden opportunity to let my products and efforts shine. Why bother making a trip to tune someone's engine if you're only later going to complain that "I didn't really work hard at it" or "we never were notified of a shootout" - sometimes, you don't know ahead of time that your work will be compared to others. Life's a shootout. Arrive prepared.


Have a better day,
-Scott

[dieselgeek]

I wouldn't have even posted it if I didn't care........

You wouldn't have posted if you were a part of anything worth talking about :-)

[Ron Ward]

I don't have a dog in this fight, really. But, what I see here are a couple of recognized "professional" aftermarket product/service providers in a very "unprofessional" pissing contest. Quite frankly, I would have thought better of both participants than to behave in such fashion in a public forum.


I think I'll just leave it at that.



Ron

[AEM Devin]

So it was YOU who was overly concerned that no other tuners see your calibration on an engine that you claim you never really spent time tuning? It sure seems like you felt you had something to protect. Yet everywhere else you state that this engine "never really got the attention it deserved" and "AEM wasn't represented" Major confusion on my end - which is it, the AEM was running a "startup calibration" or was it running a tune that you demanded not be shown to other tuners? It's either one or the other.

Devin, all I can really suggest from this point forward to help keep yourself from getting into these "unknown shootout" situations is simply this: Treat EVERY tuning opportunity as though it's your own personal shootout. Realize that having YOUR system on ANY engine *IS YOUR REPRESENTATION* - don't make excuses for why you "could have" done better on the tune. Ray Barton Racing is one of the top racing engine builders in the country, I would NEVER show up there without being 100% prepared (i.e., my EMS wouldn't cause me a day of downtime because it was configured for a 4-cyl Honda by mistake). Whenever I set foot in anyone's garage or dyno shop, I treat it as a golden opportunity to let my products and efforts shine. Why bother making a trip to tune someone's engine if you're only later going to complain that "I didn't really work hard at it" or "we never were notified of a shootout" - sometimes, you don't know ahead of time that your work will be compared to others. Life's a shootout. Arrive prepared.


Have a better day,
-Scott

It's called respect for customers Scott and something David held with a high level of integrety. "My" is not the correct wording here... it's the customer's property.

Like I said before, if you decide to have a shootout again, please have the respect this time to invite representatives from the other companies involved so it's actually a shootout.

[dieselgeek]

Like I said before, if you decide to have a shootout again, please have the respect this time to invite representatives from the other companies involved so it's actually a shootout.

You need to take that up with David Barton. All I did was show up and do what was requested of me - tune for max power. This shootout wasn't my idea, it was theirs. Sorry if they weren't keeping you up to speed on what was happening, seems strange you were worried about your tune being viewed by other tuners yet not aware of a test going on? these are all problems between you and your customer. Don't take it out on me if I showed up and did a good job.

[AEM Devin]

All I did was show up and do what was requested of me - tune for max power.

This is exactly what I've been trying to get at. Our jobs were very different.

My job was to make sure Ray Barton Racing got up and running on the AEM system and to see they had a smooth transition (brand new users) and out to the race track with their customers. There was no "tune for max power" dyno session or shootout. They got the engine in the car quickly and the rest is history. End of story. If a guy wants to make up some wicked wiz bang tuner calibrator title because I successfully supported someone

[JeffMcKC]

It's called respect for customers Scott and something David held with a high level of integrety. "My" is not the correct wording here... it's the customer's property.

Like I said before, if you decide to have a shootout again, please have the respect this time to invite representatives from the other companies involved so it's actually a shootout.

Your first Post lacked a lot of respect in trying to play down the unit and the work put into it, trying to misslead the work that was done by Scott. His post had no disrespect to your unit, it was a question on his part, how two pulls with the same AFR and Timing one would have less power, its sad you have decided not address the reason why, but only try to cover up why your box is down on power, Buy blaming "It was not our best Tuner" I am sure the Bartons are dissapointed in your not sending your best guy to them to help when they ask.

It sound like your lacking in a reason why this has happend and just throwing the best Dart you have at Scott and hoping it sticks. You missed and come off cheap and cheesy but I am used to seeing that from just a sales guy. Cough Cough