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Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

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  • #76

    Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

    JeffMcKC - I'm not trying to throw darts. Please see below.

    I participated in an interesting "shootout" that a popular race engine builder put together this past weekend.

    After 22 pulls and about 3 hours of tuning, throwing every single trick I know at this engine - the MS3 bested the other two finalists by 7hp. I arrived at the exact same ignition timing advance and AFRs as the other two tuners (who were there on Tuesday and Thursday - Friday was mine), but the MS3x made more across the board despite showing the same timing and AFRs.
    Post above was made on 4/8/2012, referenced “this past weekend”, and mentions two other tuners who were there on Tuesday and Thursday. No representative from AEM has stepped foot in Ray Barton Racing’s facility in 2012.

    Honestly, when I found myself 14hp down and no more fuel to take out, I thought we were beaten. It turned out that this particular engine *seriously* wanted proper injection event phasing. Usually, this only helps the lower RPM range and torque (nobody cared about that on this engine), but it actually gained a lot on the top end too. I have ZERO explanation for this as the injector was running at 75% duty cycle, way more than the intake valve is open (about 25% open duty on the intake valve). I cannot explain this at all, it baffled me but I am glad I tried it.
    A very significant gain in HP due to injection phasing tuning was attributed in the statement above.

    No injection phasing tuning was ever performed while I visited Barton’s facility last year. Main fuel table, Ignition advance table, and some cylinder to cylinder trim adjustments were the items we reviewed and that was it. There was never a goal to chase after some max horsepower numbers during the visit in 2011. The goal was to provide support to a customer and make sure they transitioned into an engine management system without problems. The goal was met and we've had a great working relationship with them ever since.

    It would simply be nice to see AEM bring in a good tuner, have some friendly competition, and that’s all. Again, I’m not throwing darts.

    Comment


    • #77

      Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

      I don't have a dog in this fight, really. But, what I see here are a couple of recognized "professional" aftermarket product/service providers in a very "unprofessional" pissing contest. Quite frankly, I would have thought better of both participants than to behave in such fashion in a public forum.


      I think I'll just leave it at that.


      Ron
      Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
      1983 Mustang GT 552/C6 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
      1973 F-250 460/E4OD http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
      1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

      Comment


      • #78

        Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

        Your first Post lacked a lot of respect in trying to play down the unit and the work put into it, trying to misslead the work that was done by Scott. His post had no disrespect to your unit, it was a question on his part, how two pulls with the same AFR and Timing one would have less power, its sad you have decided not address the reason why, but only try to cover up why your box is down on power, Buy blaming "It was not our best Tuner" I am sure the Bartons are dissapointed in your not sending your best guy to them to help when they ask.

        It sound like your lacking in a reason why this has happend and just throwing the best Dart you have at Scott and hoping it sticks. You missed and come off cheap and cheesy but I am used to seeing that from just a sales guy. Cough Cough
        This is all BS anyways, no two dyno pulls will ever be the same, Freiberger's been showing us that for years........Example is when they took that junkyard 350 and tried to blow it up with nitrous, they baselined the engine then hit it with a 200 shot then baselined it again and the motor picked up HP.......... But then I'm sure in DG's world engines make the same HP on every run.......If he would have picked up 10, 15, or 20 hp I would of been more impressed, but 7hp isn't even enough to feel in the seat of your pants or in that fact see in an ET.......... I guess there's a reason the NHRA doesn't race dyno's.......... And let me just say tuning for max power, doesn't always mean your making the best "average" power.......

        Comment


        • #79

          Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

          You might be surprised at how repeatable engines can be on a well run dyno like Westech or Virbancic's or Dougan's to name three I've had engines tuned on in the last several years. In the Mythbuster thread we've talked about measuring the impact of small timing changes for both mean best timing and as a response to changes in fuels.

          And as to what those small differences mean at the track, a small change in launch timing got me .06 in the sixty foot. Doesn't sound like much, but I like low 9.80's better than mid 9.90's.

          Junkers have different issues. Engines built to better 100% VE are very repeatable. I'm guessing the stuff out of a top shop like Ray Barton's is down to fractions of a %.
          Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

          Comment


          • #80

            Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

            TC you should stick to things you know something about, from doing not reading. Just sayin. And do you know the junk yard motor did not pick up power from the added heat cleaning it out. Sorry I did not read about it, I dont read Magazines. Did they cool the water down on the dyno. or just note it and say they dont know why? You need to read Highlife and find a new hobby.

            Bill is correct.
            2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
            First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
            2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
            2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

            Comment


            • #81

              Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

              So many different topics have been discussed I don't even know where to start.

              Actually, I do know where to start. This whole thing spun out of control when there were posts on several web sites stating that Ray Barton Racing was switching all of their cars to Megasquirt products and they hired Scott Clark to tune them. This statement is completely false. That is not how it all went down.

              I don't appreciate people spreading false information like this, it is really pissing me off. It's really bad for business.

              Comment


              • #82

                Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

                TC you should stick to things you know something about, from doing not reading. Just sayin. And do you know the junk yard motor did not pick up power from the added heat cleaning it out. Sorry I did not read about it, I dont read Magazines. Did they cool the water down on the dyno. or just note it and say they dont know why? You need to read Highlife and find a new hobby.

                Bill is correct.
                They credited it to the nitrous knocking the carbon off the ring lands..... But they did pick up 15hp........

                When we re-baselined the normally aspirated combo, our little hero small-block stepped up with 325 hp, an increase of 15 hp over the previous baseline.

                Read more: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...#ixzz1uXSZZofc
                Last edited by TC; May 10th, 2012, 11:09 PM.

                Comment


                • #83

                  Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

                  So the dyno was right? It picked up power and showed it. Dynos repeat if you give them the chance, many factors to control to nail down wha made power and what did not.
                  2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
                  First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
                  2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
                  2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

                  Comment


                  • #84

                    Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

                    So many different topics have been discussed I don't even know where to start.

                    Actually, I do know where to start. This whole thing spun out of control when there were posts on several web sites stating that Ray Barton Racing was switching all of their cars to Megasquirt products and they hired Scott Clark to tune them. This statement is completely false. That is not how it all went down.

                    I don't appreciate people spreading false information like this, it is really pissing me off. It's really bad for business.
                    Bad for all involved. I think you handled it well, the AEM guy did not. The net is a bad place for rumors, and even they get twisted in 3 posts.

                    This is why a lot of good info and People have decided to stay away.
                    2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
                    First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
                    2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
                    2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

                    Comment


                    • #85

                      Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

                      That said, and I agree with Jeff that these things can get stupid in a hurry, the exchange of information is really helpful and valuable. My hope is that the discussions can continue and it would be great to have manufacturer representation as well as pro builders. I think the key is to keep customer names and product pitches out of the traffic. Once these threads become marketplace competition issues, pissing contests to Ron's point or ones that can affect businesses, as David pointed out, the thread degenerates and we all lose.
                      Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

                      Comment


                      • #86

                        Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

                        dg should race his hond0box against tc's camaro

                        Comment


                        • #87

                          Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

                          It would win, It runs
                          2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
                          First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
                          2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
                          2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

                          Comment


                          • #88

                            Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

                            <-----------My Camaro runs...........about to have over 500hp to.........
                            Last edited by TC; May 12th, 2012, 02:15 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #89

                              Re: Can one EFI box make "more power" than another, all else being equal??

                              Y'all realize this stuff you write never goes away?
                              Everyone stay cool...(especially the "pros")

                              BKB the EFI red headed step child
                              www.FBthrottlebodies.com
                              Bruce K Bridges

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