EZ-EFI, Atomic EFI or ??

[dieselgeek]

I would think $2500-3000 would go a LONG ways towards a well sorted carburetor... what else am I missing?

[milner351]

If you want a comparison - call up Speedjunkie in Indy and talk things over with him, carbs are his bag baby.

[mike343sharpstick]

I would think $2500-3000 would go a LONG ways towards a well sorted carburetor... what else am I missing?

Now that's just silly

[dieselgeek]

Now that's just silly

I was being serious. Apparently I do not understand your point.

You are considering EFI but only want the "EZ" systems, which pretty clearly won't do much better than a carburetor (while requiring more maintenance and setup effort). I simply pointed out, if you're willing to spend nearly $3K on a TBI, how far would that same money go for a well tuned carburetor?

[PatricksDad]

If you did the hardware prep work (get your manifold of choice set up for injectors and rails, drilled the extruded rails at the proper spacing, etc.) you could expect around $1500-2000 for a guy like me to wire, install and tune a Megasquirt-2 or 3 based system, again provided you had the fuel and charging systems ready to go. That would include work on a loadbearing chassis dyno to get things well sorted, and any remote support you'd need after the install. That price would include the ECU and wire harness, and all the little bits that complete the harness. Not included in that figure would be the manifold, injectors, rails, fuel pump and regulator. This is a "go big, premium" rate IMO.

That include T&E?

[dieselgeek]

That include T&E?

that includes plenty allotment for my time. I'm just giving you a typical example when a guys says "here's most of the hard parts, get me the electronics and deliver me back a running car where I turn the key and pop wheelies"

Add travel expenses if I am coming to you, 3/4 of my work is based on traveling to where the car lives.

[PatricksDad]

that includes plenty allotment for my time. I'm just giving you a typical example when a guys says "here's most of the hard parts, get me the electronics and deliver me back a running car where I turn the key and pop wheelies"

Add travel expenses if I am coming to you, 3/4 of my work is based on traveling to where the car lives.

How do you feel about the Delaware shore?

[dieselgeek]

never been there. they tell me its nice :-)

[mike343sharpstick]

You have increased the purchase quote of an EZ system by about 30%, Just a tick over 2K With fuel pump and filters. Remove the fuel pump cost for point of comparison (carbs need Fuel Pumps too) and it’s less than 2K. So for valid comparison purposes let’s use 2K for the TBI cost.
As stated earlier, the cost of a carb project assuming new parts at list price are as follows.
Carb w/Electric Choke $400
O2 sensor and guage $250
Carb Accelerator Pump tuning Kit $150
Carb Jet, Power valve, pump nozzle kit $103
Dyno time to tune it, Unknown; let’s say $400 ($100 per hour, to tune fuel and timing).
Carb changes to get it functioning properly at high lateral G, and braking loads. Unknown
At this point the carb cost is at $1,303.
This cost can go way up, custom built carbs can go easily to $600 dollars, and will still need to be tuned to your car. That would bring the cost up to $1,500. If it’s not correct, do some of the process again. Buy new better/bigger/smaller/different brand carb and repeat. If this occurs, and it often does, the cost is equal.
What you are saying is that the result of a carb project, done properly (Dangerous assumption, lots of hacks out there), are the same result as a properly tuned EFI-TBI system, which a self tuner claims it can do. Here is the debate at hand.
So for roughly $500/$700 more, I could theoretically bolt on an aftermarket EFI in 4 hours and have the same performance as the above carb project/PITA. IF that’s the case, sign me up. HOWEVER, it sounds that this is unlikely.
So in my opinion spending $2000 on getting a carb tuned is very possible and silly, given the EFI options out there.
Spending $2,500 on a ‘go big’ option seems to be an additional valid option.

[dieselgeek]

Why buy the O2 sensor and gauge for a carb'd application - the carb doesn't need it and if you're paying $100 an hour for dyno time, the dyno shop is going to have one.

Accel pump tuning really costs $150 for parts? sheesh! Also make sure your fuel tank sump with the EFI is set up for high lateral G forces for cornering, I know a lot of guys whose first attempt at a fuel tank was a fail under cornering, braking, or accelleration. Also be sure your wet-flow intake manifold is also compatible with this kind of use - some don't do so welll, leaning out cylinders as the cornering forces go up. Maybe in the end you might consider a self-tuning EFI system that runs port injectors?

Just throwing some ideas based on experience out there.

[PatricksDad]

never been there. they tell me its nice :-)

Might have a gig for you. Big-inch (500+?) FE Cobra replica and he want's to EZ-EFI it. He's shooting for 750hp or so, with a small shot of N20.

I think he has better options.



It lives next to this:




<END HIJACK>

[dieselgeek]

Isn't 750hp 200+ above what an EZ will support? or is it Atomic?

I'd say the Cobra replica deserves a real deal EFI treatment, even if it's a FAST or BigStuff3. I did one with a big inch Ford a few years ago, got rid of the distributor and ran hidden LS coilpacks, crank trigger ignition, and an EMS-pro (heavier duty version of a Megasquirt 1).

[TheSilverBuick]

My two cents on the lateral cornings stuff and a gas tank. Unless Atomic EFI and others have a fancy way of purging air from the fuel lines before injection, I don't see how they are bolt on deals. On my thunderbird's TBI, before I installed a surge tank, anything around or below 1/4 tank would cause the engine to stumble when I stopped, made simple right or left hand turns or tried to accellerate at a decent clip. The fuel pickup (new sender/pickup and gas tank) must of sucked air at some point, and I would expect any EFI system to behave the same without the fuel system upgrades of some kind.

[BKBridges]

.02
While I understand the reason for the existence of EZ TBI and Atomic TBI, Im not a fan of either. They have all of the issues EFI installation and tuning can bring, without a lot of the best benefits. A major good thing when converting to real MPI is the reduction/elimination of fuel distribution problems, not the case with TBI. With that said, I have had good success selling, installing and using the FAST EZ mulitiport kits on a variety of motors from 300hp to 640hp. There are gotchas: Manifold vacuum IMO must be over 10" at idle, NO exhaust leaks allowed, no nitrous, E85, no ignition control. no special decel fuel management etc. as has been posted before. from a reliability and repeatability stand point it does kick the crud out of a worn out Thermoquad on a cast iron OEM manifold. If you get a EZ kit with a good harness and ECU/Handheld, it truely is a no -brainer weekend installation. If there is a quality problem with any of the components you will wish that you had purchased the system from a real distributor and not Summit/Jegs etc. as you will need support (see cpgnation.com). The EZ system needs to be tuned for every different application, but the tuning instructions, providing you READ them, are very complete (for the FAST EZ in multiport config)... Ginning up an MPI manifold is not too difficult and lots of applications already have manifolds with MPI provisions available. Injectors for an under 300hp app can run as low as $200.00 new/set of 8.
I like real Walbro pumps and dont mess with anything else unless its a Bosch 044. Need more fuel, add another pump...A filter regulator assembly from a modern vehicle (BMW, C6 Corvette etc.) saves you a lot of dough re filter regulator, but wont work on the TBI stuff due to the higher set pressure of the OEM reg (59 psi usually vs. 43 psi reqd)) but works great with MPI.

Bottom line: If I were you, Id call DIY Autotune, order up a MPI MS3, build/buy a manifold, piece together the fuel system from a Walbro pump and OEM FRG, then post like hell on this site when it comes time to trouble shoot and tune... We are there for you.
As far as Cobras go, as Ive shamelessly said before, I think this would look really good under the hood:

[mike343sharpstick]

I have spent a bunch of effort looking at keeping the fluids in the car where they are suppose to be, Always important no matter the fluid. The only ‘trick’ part on my new motor is going to be the low-profile, high volume, custom oil pan and external oil pickup line. The rest of the motor is just a basic 10:1CR 401 with light-weight spinning bits and a moderate cam for fat mid-range. The motor should be done in the spring which is why I am looking into fuel feeding options NOW.

So what you are saying about fuel tanks/pickup is the same deal, going to start with a new re-man tank and go from there. The metal fab stuff is truly what I enjoy.

BKB, I have been swayed some, this has been a good discussion. I am seriously looking into the effort to do just what you have mentioned with the exception of that last bit, I’d honestly rather pay Scott or someone else $1500-2000 to wire, install and tune a Megasquirt based system.

This is not my first time around the block. When I was racing motorcycles I found some great engine builders and tuners, paid a fair price for great work and had good success with a very reliable and fast machines.

I don’t mind spending money, I HATE wasting it!