EZ-EFI, Atomic EFI or ??

[mike343sharpstick]

About a month ago I nearly called Summit and purchased the Atomic EFI kit, but I started having second thoughts.

My history with tunable EFI is minimal, many years ago I had an RC51(Honda Motorcycle) That we made some changes to, and I worked with a reputable tuner in Minneapolis to get a custom tune created, and watching that process was amazing. The result was amazing as well. I 'Get IT'.


I really like the Mega Squirt stuff, it’s tun-ability and flexibility is undeniably good. Thing is, I do NOT have the spare time, or the desire to get that deep into creating a custom home-built EFI system. Im not looking to get every last HP out of the motor either, just a solid street car w/occasional autoX and similar hooliganism.

I also have an AMC, so my choices for an EFI system and intakes are limited as compared to what’s available for an LS engine or something more common.

I have been doing as much reading as I could on both systems and it’s obvious both are directly competing with each other.

If I had some resources near by that could build and tune a MegaSquirt system, MPFI intake, etc. for about the same cost as the two our-of-the-box solutions (~$2,300)I would likely consider that, but I don’t have that option.

That leaves the two mentioned options which seem relatively similar.

The Atomic is likely where I’m going to go, I like its simplicity and it’s ability to also control timing.

The EZ-EFI is nice as it a bit more mature, and is more flexible for some improvements that I may want to make down the road.

Am I missing anything in my analysis?
I hope some knowledgable BangShifters will have some interesting insight on this, thanks.
Mike

[fast Ed]

Not much to add, other than I'd like to hear what people here have to say as well. Considering the Atomic EFI for the pretty much stock (and will remain so) 390 in my 66 T-Bird.


cheers
Ed

[squirrel]

Holley sells some 4bbl throttle bodies with injectors....close to a grand....you still need the rest of the fuel system and the computer, wiring, and the tuning end of it. DIY autotune has the electronics, and you'd have to do the tuning yourself.

If I were going efi, I'd want to be able to mess with it all....are you sure you wouldn't?

[CDMBill]

The MegaSquirt/DIY Auto tune route is at least the same cost maybe less and you will get better results, mileage, power, you name it and you will know what is going on when you do it. You can start with a stock distributor and coil and go from there as you progress.

The Atomic and EZ deals are simplified TBI and offer less than a well tuned carb setup IMHO.

[Beagle]

If you have the balls to squeeze the trigger on an RC51 and decide you need more, you have plenty my friend. Lol. They are angry devices stock.

Echo on the fuel only from the MS as a starting point - and DIYAutotone has you covered on harnesses and such. I wouldn't be surprised if they would one off something for you in the same cost area, handle timing if you want, etc.

Nothing against the P-n-p self tuning guys, but given the above statement, I think you might be happier in the long run. You haven't left much else alone on that car.... I don't want to sound like a minion, but I guess I do. How long do you think you will leave it alone? I looked at DIYAutoTune's harnesses and they are labeled and complete. They offer all kinds of stages.

Matt Cramer is on here quite a bit or time to time, hit him up in PM and see what he says about it? The turnkey stuff for the MS is really getting there. Of all the kits I've seen, that is the direction I will go. Being a Mustang boy, I have it easy. They just released a PNP Megasquirt that uses my existing harness. I need to do a Fuel only on the Lightning soon, and either the MS or something with a really active community like a Moates QuarterHorse will get the nod.

The big thing I'm looking for is the community, and I don't think there is a more helpful or active community than the MS. Again, nothing against the vendors stuff, but eventually I know I will want to jack with it.

Do they offer additional drivers? Can you control optional components? Will they compensate for E85? My curiosity for the optional junk had mostly to do with waste gates, supplemental fuel or meth/water injection, programmable outputs and additional inputs. What is the future capacity of the devices you are looking at, and do you realistically think you will ever need them?

I'm also looking for easy interfacing, USB (turn off the serial buffer in Windows), possible Bluetooth? I think DG has done that with somebody here. Wireless? Hell yeah. Is there an app for that? (sorry, had to.) I don't know how far you are from Scott Clark (DG) but he's been a wealth of information for several guys on here. You're a damn smart guy, you would pick it up in a heartbeat. Take a look at the tuner software for the MS if you get a few minutes. It's as complicated or as simple as you want to make it. http://www.megamanual.com/mtabcon.htm has a landfill sized mountain of information. As much or litle as you need. There is a line to TunerStudio in there. I believe you can install it and look it over without the hardware being needed.

I think the manifolding for a port injection is the only real hangup for you and I would bet that is pretty obtainable. The other benefit I see is parts store sensors. Most of the stuff I saw on the MS is GM or Ford based. I'm not sure on the self-tuners what they are using but I would check on that as well.

Gawd, I do sound like a minion.

[squirrel]

Gawd, I do sound like a minion.

let me know when you get your check, I want one too

[Barry Donovan]

given the big bucks..
you could target all the mistakes surrounding the surreal carb and be quite surprised at the result.
<- stays closer to this.

alot of the efi stuff is real evolution.
high pressure tank, clamps, lines, hoses, venting.. a push system more than a pull (that one move is awesome).

set all that stuff up first, you may not even want fuel injection...or gain time to save up for getting it done well.

I have a freak car that has the oem injection version and a carb version, same chassis. I will never forget the lesson in swapping things over preparing for a DIY efi.. The carb went genius. I changed my mind went back 35 years and plucked a carb off a dirty pile.

[dieselgeek]

Mike,

The "self tuning" thing is, in my opinion, a marketing gimmick. It's very easy to be able to look at your O2 sensor data and say "needs more fuel here" or "needs less fuel here" - which is all that Self Tuning is doing.

Meanwhile, as Bill points out, you might seriously be better off with a carburetor and tuning it yourself if you are considering the TBI system. Those just do not work as well as carburetors, at least in my testing. Maybe I am missing something though.

Meanwhile, something like a Megasquirt lets you sneak up on your EFI system slowly - Fuel Only is a breeze, then later convert to ignition control. By the time you've done those two you'll be glad you gave yourself some options as 100% of the guys here who I helped get started with EFI, later went on to add options to customize their system to their own needs/wants.

If you feel that the EZ-EFI or Atomic are less likely to cause you headaches, I defer you to the cpgnation web forum where hundreds of other guys are having the same headaches with their EFI as you'll have with any system. First and foremost you need to have a good 12v power and charging system, easily evaluated before making the changeover if you do like Squirrel and set up your EFI system first just for datalogging and observation of your charging system.

But if your goal is just to be able to say you have "EFI underhood" - then perhaps the two systems you are considering are just fine.

[mike343sharpstick]

All good points!
I agree that the MegaSaquirt option is the ‘Best’ all-around option for Power, scalability, efficiency, tune-ability, and on, and on, with the only draw-back being the investment in time, from what I’ve read, a whole bunch of time. That’s my hang-up.

I have been following the threads with anything to do with EFI for literally years. Lots of great information! Overload perhaps.

I will re-evaluate the DIY autotune options again. I’ve already been minutes from pulling the trigger on hundreds of dollars worth of components from them too. Man, am I skittish on this stuff!

There is an underlying factor I haven’t mentioned in this thread, I spend 8-10 hour days working in IT, when I get home I have zero desire to program, tune, or even turn on a computer. The Car thing is my outlet for the mechanical endeavors, not software and hardware headaches. So Beagle, you state “Take a look at the tuner software”, and the thing is, I really don’t want to, LOL.

Let me go through some of the points that were brought up.
1. The Atomic and EZ deals are simplified TBI and offer less than a well tuned carb setup IMHO.

Not any Automobile Carb I’ve tuned! LOL. As stated before in some other threads, I know motorcycle carbs, not Holley’s and such. Also, in my experience tuning a carb requires a fair amount of effort too, either on the dyno, or tuning AFR’s with a hand-held. The self tuners basically tune, based on AFR, for you, and seem to get a very good result. If I lived near (Within a 3 to 4 hour drive) a reputable dyno/MegaSquirt shop that is what I would do. I have NO problem paying for experts to do their thing.

2. If I were going efi, I'd want to be able to mess with it all....are you sure you wouldn't?

Great Question! For me, at this time, NO. (In the next 1 to 2 years, Yes, I’ll likely want to mess with it) I just want my junk to run right. A car is a combination of stuff - cornering, braking, and power, I want to focus on cornering and braking. And lots of little stuff. I want good, reliable power.

3. Do they offer additional drivers? Can you control optional components?

Beagle, you bring up another, large, valid point with regards to scalability options, and with the Atomic-EFI there is none, no boost, no E85, no Nitrous, etc. The EZ-Efi does have some additional options for dual carbs, and such. That said, I have no short-term need to do any of that stuff. I also think with the EZ-EFI components, I may be able to use that throttle body and applicable sensors with a MegaSquirt system should I choose to do so as a future upgrade. Not sure that option exists with the Atomic?

[dieselgeek]

If the goal is to have a car that runs right without having to touch carb or EFI software, why not just take it to a good carb tuning shop and have it optimized there?

I haven't seen anywhere where an Atomic or EZ-EFI jas an onboard barometric pressure sensor, and closed loop tuning is not instantaneous, so I am not sure those systems do any better at compensating for weather than a carburetor.

Meanwhile, I've looked at a number of both the systems you mention, in every single case there was something about the performance that left quite a lot to be desired. They suffer from the same niggling glitches that any affects every EFI system. If you're not willing to fiddle with your current vehicle's electrical system, and debug glitches here and there, I'd stay far away from EFI altogether.

And remember, you have to be wary of opinions of people who bought those systems and report "total awesomeness" online because nobody on the Internet ever will admit they made a poor choice. Usually, anyhow. The guys who share their ups and downs are by far the crowd you should listen to, to set your own expectations.

At this point I would have offered to come up there for a day or two and get you started with a legitimate EFI system (thinking Holley Dominator, Megasquirt, FAST XFI, etc.) but if you are totally not interested in spending time working with tuning software, electrical system debugging and tuning, etc. - I'm thinking EFI is not going to be a good choice in any flavor.

[TC]

Here's a video that show how the self-learn works on a Holley EFI.......

I forgot what magazine did the article but they put the EFI tuner at West Tech performance up against a Holley self-learn system. What took the EFI guy to tune in 3 hours took the Holley EFI 3 dyno pulls to duplicate..... Fact is the Self Learn efi produced the same power output as 3 hours of manual dyno tuning in just 3 dyno pulls. To me that is impressive!!!.......

IF your looking for an EFI system that is bolt on and go, go with one of the self learn efi systems and forget about the headache's.....

But if your into building your own EFI system and want to take weeks if not months to learn how the MS software works and how to tune the car properly, then by all means get the MS.....They even have a self tune option to, though it's not going to be as plug and play as what your looking at......

IMO it all comes down to how much of an effort you want to put into tuning your car.......

[mike343sharpstick]

Scott, I posted just as you also posted.

I value your experience, thanks for chiming in. I just want it to run right, and want to move into the benefits of EFI.

So the cost of getting a carb to run properly isn't cheap either, the cost of a good properly sized carb with electric choke is 400$ to my door, and the O2 sensor isn't free $200 minimum. Then I spend hours and hours and hours getting the AFR's correct on that carb changing accel pump cams, squirters, jets, etc. for even more money. Then I get frustrated and go get my carb tuned at a good dyno showp, more $$. If I'm lucky it will run as good as a Plug and Play EFI system, until the weather changes.

For YOU, Fuel Only is a breeze. I've followed STINEY's DIY-EFI Thread closely and it looks like a ton of time and screwing around.

Could the components from the EZ-EFI system be driven by MegaSquirt down the road??

[dieselgeek]

I don't know if the EZ-EFI components can be driven by the megasquirt. I know from being paid to do test comparisons of these types of systems that carbs work better, so I left it at that.

As far as TC goes, his post should be ignored because all he can show you are marketing gimmick videos - and when it finally came time for him to do the tuning his own EFI (he spent thousands on software and training), he got scared and decided to pay another tuner to do his work. Only take opinions from people who have actually done it. Not TC.

Stiney chose to build his own system from scratch, you can buy a pre-assembled ready to go megasquirt for a HELUVA lot less than the systems you are looking at.

[TC]

Could the components from the EZ-EFI system be driven by MegaSquirt down the road??

As a person that likes to stay on top of the latest and greatest parts and tech that's out there, and a person that has built a MS and got dumbfounded when it came to the tuning software, I will tell you the MS route isn't the easy story as some of the member here make it out to be....... I'm sure if you've been doing this on a regular basis for the last 5 years it's easy, but for a beginner, not so much.....

IMO if you want a self learn efi system that you can modify parameters with in the future, I would check out the Holley efi controllers, they do the self learn and you can also manually adjust the values if needed, basically they are the best of both worlds.......

[dieselgeek]

As a person that likes to stay on top of the latest and greatest parts and tech that's out there, and a person that has built a MS and got dumbfounded when it came to the tuning software, I will tell you the MS route isn't the easy story as some of the member here make it out to be....... I'm sure if you've been doing this on a regular basis for the last 5 years it's easy, but for a beginner, not so much.....

TunerStudio is BY FAR the easiest to use tuning software available out of all the systems out there, and I say this as someone who has tuned at least 3 of every system commercially available (more like 50-100 of each of the popular ones). If you aren't willing to read the documentation (TunerStudio is again, by far the most well documented system out there) then you have no business trying EFI, and in that same case you also have no business making a recommendation for any other system that you haven't used. Claiming to stay on top of technology then fearing the most entry level of tech, seems a bit contradictory.

Self Learning systems adjust the air fuel ratio to a target that you set. EVERY single standalone out there offers this same features. Meanwhile, what percentage of "tuning" is adjusting air fuel ratio? maybe 15-20%. Whose system figures out what timing your engine wants at various loads/rpms? whose system makes sure your battery/system voltage is stable and where it needs to be? Whose system reads spark plugs for you? nobody's.

I seriously think, from how you describe it, that you should stick with the carb.