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  • single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

    Currently using a MS3 to control the ignition on a turbocharged V8. Ignition is triggered from a stok HEI dist. Running a MSD 6AL. Going to upgrade the ignition soon. Question is, which way to go? Going with a 7 or 8 MSD box would be the easiest with virtually no changes to the wiring.

    Would switching to COP be better in wasted spark? Would probably use coils from DIY http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/i...oil-p-394.html

    Plan to change to crank trigger also, doubt I'll try to make a cam trigger for sequential.
    Thanks

  • #2

    Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

    Yes, I'm a CarJunkie... How many times would YOU rebuild the same engine before getting a crate motor?




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    • #3

      Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

      As an intermediate step price wise I've had good success with the PanteraEFI four tower coils in wasted spark mode. I use a Ford type 36-1 wheel with an LS1 sensor. The coils require an exciter and have an EFI Source box for that. I did add a cam sensor, super simple as I run a belt drive. You can re-use your plug wires with the wasted spark set-up and avoid the modified valve cover issue COPs. You also don't need the MSD box, or the matching coil or the distributor, but depending on what V8 you run there may be an inexpensive distributor oil pump/stub cam sensor available.
      Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

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      • #4

        Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

        Sean, IMO getting rid of the distributor would be your next upgrade. There's a post on Speedtalk.com right no about guys reporting where their standard MSD-6 combo "gets off the bus" - in my experience, 1000-1200hp on a v8 is usually the point where you run into ignition issues.

        I've thrown the big upgrades at the problems with minimal success. Meanwhile, I can toss a wasted spark ignition like Bill's on something and make 2000+hp no problem at all. That setup costs less than a MSD-7AL and big CDI coil.

        One thing to remember, is to make sure you run the coils as designed. If you run 8 LS coils, don't run them in wasted spark. Yes, I know, a ton of kids are making it work at the drag strip but it kills the coils quick, and will overheat them with prolonged use. If yo uwant to run 8 LS coils, plan on a cam sensor and sequential ignition.

        If you want to just run a crank sensor (36-1 is my favorite, 60-2 works too), and no cam sensor, make sure you have a wasted spark ignition. Bill has two of the 4-tower packs, and an ignitor to trigger them (ignitor goes between your ECU and the coilpacks, works as a transistor or remote control for the coils, sorta like a relay).
        www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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        • #5

          Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

          The four tower coils look like this. I mounted the pair on an aluminum plate and stuck them where the distributor was to make the plug wire routing easy.



          From the top view. Coils cost $175 each IIRC. I've had them and the igniter on the car for six years with no issues including three Drag Weeks.



          The ignitor box from EFISource is small and looks lke this on the inside and outside and costs $130.



          Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

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          • #6

            Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

            Super high tech cam sensor

            I figured I'd post picture of high dollar cam sensor setup. Cherry sensor cost $27 mount home made, $4 for wire and weather-pak connector.
            Attached Files
            Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

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            • #7

              Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

              And the super high tech carnk sensor: LS1 sensor and pigtail $38, home made bracket, bone yard 36-1 wheel $15.

              Note the replacement wheel I had to get later after version 2 of the home made set-up fragged cost $45 wwater jet cut steel plate.

              Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

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              • #8

                Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

                Thanks for the input. Did not know not to run COP coils in wasted spark or about using the quad coil set-up.

                So two of these: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/i...ack-p-409.html

                Two of these: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/q...ule-p-481.html

                Wired this way: http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_arti...rk_ms_mods.htm

                That would be sufficient for 2000hp? Not that this Cadillac 500 will ever get there, but 1000hp is possible. May go for more later if I switch to an aftermarket BBC. At what point would the sequential with the Pantera coils in COP be deemed required?

                I'm not opposed to doing sequential if it is needed for the COP coil arrangement. Just didn't think it would need it.

                What have others done with the top of the distributor after going to crank trigger. Still need the drive for the oil pump, but is there a way to cut the top off the distributor to get it out of the way?

                On a side question, why do many of the high powered LS guys switch to a distributor and MSD 7 or 8 stuff?

                Thanks

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                • #9

                  Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

                  Thanks a lot for the pics, I was typing as you posted those and didn't see them till after I posted. Are those coils the same as DIYautotune sells? I can't seem to find any info on the Pantera stuff on Panteras site.

                  Or is the stuff DIY sells equivalent?

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                  • #10

                    Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

                    Hey Scott, I looked around on Speedtalk, found a thread, not sure it is the one you referred to. You did post that the IGN-1A coils could be used COP wasted spark. Am I misunderstanding not using COP coils in wasted spark? Or is it just don't use the LS coils in wasted spark and the IGN-1A's are OK to use in wasted spark?

                    Thanks
                    Last edited by seanm; November 5th, 2012, 05:47 PM.

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                    • #11

                      Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

                      I figured I'd post picture of high dollar cam sensor setup. Cherry sensor cost $27 mount home made, $4 for wire and weather-pak connector.
                      THAT is freaking brillant. I'm stealing that one!!
                      I'm still learning

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                      • #12

                        Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

                        Thanks a lot for the pics, I was typing as you posted those and didn't see them till after I posted. Are those coils the same as DIYautotune sells? I can't seem to find any info on the Pantera stuff on Panteras site.

                        Or is the stuff DIY sells equivalent?
                        I looked at Pantera EFI;s site today and saw that the four tower units aren't shown. They are on DIY Auto Tune as you found.

                        The IGN-4 on DIY Auto tune is the right piece. My memeroy was bad, $150 for two of them, $68.50ea. to be exact is correct.



                        They listed an Ignition Module (igniter) which I didn;t find in my cursory look. I used the EFI Source unbit mentioned above. So all together its even less money than I'd remmembered. One caveat: My application isn't boosted, just 11.86:1 N/A on pump gas, a little over 1000 HP from 588" so you are likely seeing more cylinder pressure and the IGN-1A's might be right for you. single COP, no igiter required, $68 each times 8.
                        Last edited by CDMBill; November 5th, 2012, 10:48 PM.
                        Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

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                        • #13

                          Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

                          Hey Scott, I looked around on Speedtalk, found a thread, not sure it is the one you referred to. You did post that the IGN-1A coils could be used COP wasted spark. Am I misunderstanding not using COP coils in wasted spark? Or is it just don't use the LS coils in wasted spark and the IGN-1A's are OK to use in wasted spark?

                          Thanks

                          You have it right, the IGN1-A's are quick enough charging that they can be used in wasted spark mode. That's how Huber runs his turbo-4. It's just the coils that are designed for sequential use that you have to be concerned about - namely, the LS coils.
                          www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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                          • #14

                            Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

                            Hey thanks to all of you guys. Doubt it will need the IGN1A's with the current engine. If I get serious about lsr racing it will take a lot more power, so will probably go with them instead of buying twice. They can't hurt.

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                            • #15

                              Re: single coil vs waste spark vs seq.

                              Hey thanks to all of you guys. Doubt it will need the IGN1A's with the current engine. If I get serious about lsr racing it will take a lot more power, so will probably go with them instead of buying twice. They can't hurt.
                              Consider the four tower coils Bill is using. We spec'd them for a HUGE shot of nitrous when originally selecting the coils (Bill got to visit Lance Nist, he's the Dr. Frankenstein of the EFI world, or perhaps the Socrates). If I remember correctly, Bill's coils are very near the same capability as the IGN1-As.

                              In his current state of tune, Bill's ignition is set to a very low dwell time. His coils will last a LONG time at such low duty cycle.

                              And don't forget, getting rid of the distributor gets rid of a lot of noise problems. I hate distributors because phasing them and managing noise is a pain in the ass - wasted spark is a HUGE step up in terms of simplicity, power capability. As you'd guess, simpler is always better.
                              www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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