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  • Megasquirt Advice Needed

    This is geared more towards DG or Matt Cramer, but really anyone who's been in a similar situation feel free to chime in.

    I have a friend who wants to upgrade his '70's truck to fuel injection. He hates the concept of batch injection so he's pretty much settled on at least semi-sequential with an MS3. My question is, for semi-sequential injection is the MS3 fine or does he need to order the MS3X card to go with it?

    I'll probably wind up doing most of the install and whatnot since I've had more experience retrofitting EFI to older engines, I'm thinking a trigger wheel, EDIS and semi-sequential, and then if he wants to go full sequential ignition and injection we can convert the duraspark distributor to a single pole cam sensor or drop in a TFI hall sensor distributor and modify the "windows" accordingly.

    I guess where I'm really not sure about the 3x or 3 is I see in the manual that there are injector outputs from the cpu but they look to be line level which means I'd have to build an injector driver circuit. At that point my gut instinct is telling me it's probably cheaper and easier to just get the 3x card. If he doesn't want to spring for the card, I guess he'll have to learn to love batch injection...assuming I'm interpreting everything correctly. lol

    Anyway, hope that makes sense, any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated.

  • #2

    Re: Megasquirt Advice Needed

    sequential may be good for that last mpg, idle, or emissions, and I'm not really the guy to speak to that, but I would ask this...

    How long does he think the fuel is gonna sit there in the intake tract getting stale? At a very slow 600 rpm idle, it will have all of .10 seconds to sit there... around .01 seconds at redline.

    I'm having math problems with 2 revs per cycle but still, even doubled, I'm not worried about fuel doing weird things in .01 to .2 seconds
    Last edited by Beagle; May 24th, 2013, 04:23 PM.
    Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

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    • #3

      Re: Megasquirt Advice Needed

      If it were me, I'd just run a Microsquirt on it. I'd guess that for 90-95% of EFI retrofits that would be all anyone really needs. Batch fire seems to work pretty good in my experience; that said, it's his money and I'll build it any way he wants it.

      I guess he's gone ahead and ordered the MS3 so I'll find out if a 3x card is in his future or not.

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      • #4

        Re: Megasquirt Advice Needed

        I hear you - this is what http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/sequentialfuel.html says

        The MS3 ECU code can run many engines in semi-sequential or full sequential Injection.
        Semi-sequential
        can be run with a standard built MS3 using the existing fuel injection drivers on the main board (2). Certain conditions do apply, you will need a crank signal, e.g a 36-1 (Ford), 60-2, etc, to run semi and a cam signal to run full sequential. Setups using an EDIS module (12 pinned device) or a distributor signal won't work Im afraid.
        MS3 will need additional injectors adding to the main board (V3.0 or V3.57) or you can add full sequential with an MS3X expansion board (recommended route), this allows it to run up to 8cy in full sequential.
        MS ECU's will need to drive high impedance injectors for fully sequential injection, lo-impedance injectors will need resistors adding in series to make them effectively high impedance. Semi Sequential injection can run lo or hi impedance injectors as this uses the main 2 injector drives on the main board (V3.0 or V3.57) which have PWM.
        Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

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        • #5

          Re: Megasquirt Advice Needed

          I bow to the master. Your Google-Fu is better than mine. lol

          Looks like barring 3x I'll have to add injector drivers. I wonder if this would work added onto the proto area? That would get him semi-sequential.

          Anybody...Anybody? Bueller...Bueller?

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          • #6

            Re: Megasquirt Advice Needed

            I would beware of anyone who hasn't done EFI before, but insists they need sequential injection. That means he has hangups that might translate into being a real pain in the ass later. I only say this because I do so many conversions I've gotten good at detecting a pain in the butt very early in the process. This one screams "pain in the butt"

            Meanwhile, I'd suggest keeping it simple for the first conversion. FUEL ONLY, bank fire (2 channels), then bring on the ignition (distributor), then consider distributorless. Simple is better and upgrades in steps are smart, and make nice weekend projects. Follow what Randal did - his approach was perfect IMO.
            www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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            • #7

              Re: Megasquirt Advice Needed

              This one screams "pain in the butt"
              I wish I could get away with that quote on a business card or on a shop sign or something.

              We'll definitely be approaching it incrementally, if for no other reason than it's a lot easier to troubleshoot the process one thing at a time.

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              • #8

                Re: Megasquirt Advice Needed

                I bow to the master. Your Google-Fu is better than mine. lol

                Looks like barring 3x I'll have to add injector drivers. I wonder if this would work added onto the proto area? That would get him semi-sequential.

                Anybody...Anybody? Bueller...Bueller?
                Trying to tack the DIYPNP module onto an MS3 to get four injector drivers is going to be pretty complicated, both from a build and settings standpoint, and I don't see the results being any better than bank to bank fueling. I would only recommend that if he is doing the building and your ulterior motive is to make him give up on semi-sequential. Either use the main board injector drivers bank to bank, or add an MS3X and run full sequential - but I'd probably say start with Scott's approach of bank to bank, fuel only here, and if he doesn't like the results, you can add sequential fueling later.

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                • #9

                  Re: Megasquirt Advice Needed

                  ...your ulterior motive is to make him give up on semi-sequential.
                  After this thread was started, I began thinking that. Does that make me a bad person? Probably better not answer that.

                  I think I've got him talked into starting off simple with using it as basically a really nice MS2, with a 3X card ordered and hooked up down the line (assuming he wants to even bother once it's running and tuned).

                  I appreciate everyone's input.

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                  • #10

                    Re: Megasquirt Advice Needed

                    fwiw, I honestly don't think I can feel the difference between Sequential and batch... I pulled a mustang mill and put it in a truck, SEFI->batch. Seriously cannot feel any difference in the way it runs. It's not like it idles better or runs better... hell, for that matter, it went from MAF to SD and still I couldn't really tell. If the tune is good, life will be good.

                    I think Randal went from batch to sequential, maybe he can speak to any perceived or measurable differences in his car.
                    Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

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                    • #11

                      Re: Megasquirt Advice Needed

                      I was surprised at how well we (DG and I, mostly DG) were able to get my heap running with the Batch fire in the MS1 based EMS-Pro unit. Because I made a number of changes to my combination at the same time I upgraded to an MS3X I can't say how much if any improvement in performance that I relaized with the change to sequential.

                      There is certainly a ton of value in the change due to the enhanced datalogging capabilities and the increased control over part throttle street driving made for big strides in fuel economy and drivability despite going to dual four barrell TB's on a tunnel ram, more compressiona and a bigger cam. I am nowhere close to where Randall is with his street and altitude tuning and really clever approaches to maximizing his performance envelope.

                      I am really glad I started with the MS1 batch fire deal as it really prepared me for the MS3X install and config. (that be your tech talk right there)
                      Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

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                      • #12

                        Re: Megasquirt Advice Needed

                        bills latest combo strangely was VERY responsive to sequential injection phasing (timing of the injection event versus valve events) which 99 percent of the time does not happen. I was having a hard time getting his tip in (accel pump shot) enrichment to behave good. on a whim I changed injection timing and all of a sudden it behaved very good. that does not usually matter at tip in but its worth mention here. I am pretty sure it is because of the cam he runs which is a lot closer to Pro Stock than Stock.
                        www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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