EFI

[shaun callaway]

Re: EFI

ok lets put it this way do you want to piece together a system or do you want to buy a kit that contains everything you need.

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: EFI

I think a lot of the anti-EFI stigma is from the old days of the factory systems that didn't do well with big cams or blowers... that kind of thing. Also the stigma of the new cars where everything is on a CAN buss and you can't run the engine right if the rear defroster isn't hooked up.... that kind of mess.
I am very very pro-EFI but I'm an odd bird trying to put factory (mostly GM) systems on everything. A huge hassle for most older rods is the fuel system. Lots of us can't afford custom tanks so you are left with external pumps which generally are noisey and short lived, retrofitting newer tanks (ie my B-body Caprice tank) into older chassis, or that surge tank idea that I pitched and 427 (Kurt Urban) chimed in on approving.
Another hitch is a lot of these newer motors (the Mod, Gen III/IV, Metric "Hemi") all have very limited oilpan selection so fitting it in a chassis can be hard and the accessory drives are a lot of other problems. Now retrofit EFI whether scavenging a late model top end (L89, Vortec, 5.0/5.8 H.O., Magnum's), EFI retrofit like the Stealth Ram or RamJet, or a converted carb intake combine the engine that fits the chassis with an intake that fits the EFI.

As far as the "correctness" yeah I'll agree this is a stylistic thing, I could go for both in most applications and I love "sneaky" systems like the EFI converted Webers and Hillborns but I am the one that roughly designed a system to make an LT1 OBDII EFI system run a Buick I8....

In the end I think EFI is harder to setup and debug but easier to tune and more livable than a carb. You can make both work but the EFI works better for just about anything that gets regular road time and definately anything with truely forced induction (sucking a bottle doesn't count as forced induction, its just a poweradder).

[min301]

Re: EFI

ok lets put it this way do you want to piece together a system or do you want to buy a kit that contains everything you need.

Either way, lets look at both options.

[shaun callaway]

Re: EFI

pick a motor

[squirrel]

Re: EFI

Cost depends on application....you can get all the parts you need for a TBI setup for free if you're in the right place at the right time. Buying a nice system for a big blower motor will set you back several grand, minimum....which is way more than the cost of carb(s) for the same engine.

When it comes to fixing stuff, we paid $350 for a fuel pump for my wife's prowler, and I think the last pump I bought for her dart was $20.

I've never had to replace a TPS or MAP or MAF or coolant or O2 sensor in my old junk. I have had to buy carb kits, usually $10-30 a pop.

EFI is in widespread use because carmakers had to meet federal regulations, mostly for pollution, and that was the cost effective way to do it. If you're not under those constraints, then a carb is often the most cost effective way to go.

[min301]

Re: EFI

Just for giggles, how about a Ford 351w.

[squirrel]

Re: EFI

You could probably find a used truck system for a W pretty cheap or free....but you'd be limited by the crappy intake and too small injectors, if you want to get some performance out of it.

[min301]

Re: EFI

Give him a chance to reply......

[shaun callaway]

Re: EFI

Just for giggles, how about a Ford 351w.

$3360 for an edelbrock kit right out of the summit catalog pn 35410


MS=350-400 ecm only
MS harness=65
manifold=364
throttle body=430
clt sensor=20
iat sensor=20
3bar map=65
o2 sensor=100 (4 wire)
o2 bung=15
external fuel pump=200
injectors=roughly 450


need i go more

[squirrel]

Re: EFI

$2000-3500, yeah, that's about right for a good EFI setup. Kind of a sticker shocker compared to buying a used 3310 holley at the swap meet for $5.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: EFI

My Buick sure hasn't been cheap. I'd say if I had the tools and fabrication skills I could probably save $500 on a ~$2000 install (that is a pure guestimate, dang high cfm Throttle bodies need to seriously drop in price, these alone cost as much as a carb), because bolt on multiport parts are just not there for '77 Buicks and Buick 455's. A low cfm TBI system can be had for dirt cheap though. I lined it out on another thread but I'm putting a 600cfm Holley TBI on my FE powered T-bird soon with an MS1 running it, all cost on that one probably will cost around $900 ($250TBI, $200MS1, $250WBO2, $120 in wiring and relays, etc) but that is with all the bells and whistles, I could have probably put it together and been perfectly happy for under $600, which isn't bad considering automatic altitude and weather corrections and waaay better starting and driving characteristics than I've been able to get the crap 600cfm 4300D to run.

I'd say the biggest hold back to a mild performance engine is the EFI parts will nickel and dime you to death unless you have a common engine that is readily found in the junkyard (or decent fabrication skills with the right tools). EFI down right economical for low power engine (low cfm requirments) and probaby breaks about even on the upper end.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: EFI

Isn't the Map sensor included in the MS? I don't know the quality of them but a set of 8 accel injectors at 30b/hr are <$300 for eight. How ever you are missing the 4-wire O2 sensor controller, so the sensor and controller are $200, one wire ones are <$40 though and don't require the controller.

Just for giggles, how about a Ford 351w.

$3360 for an edelbrock kit right out of the summit catalog pn 35410


MS=350-400 ecm only
MS harness=65
manifold=364
throttle body=430
clt sensor=20
iat sensor=20
3bar map=65
o2 sensor=100 (4 wire)
o2 bung=15
external fuel pump=200
injectors=roughly 450


need i go more

[shaun callaway]

Re: EFI

Isn't the Map sensor included in the MS? I don't know the quality of them but a set of 8 accel injectors at 30-32lb/hr are <$300 for eight. How ever you are missing the 4-wire O2 sensor controller, so the sensor and controller are $200, one wire ones are <$40 though and don't require the controller.

Just for giggles, how about a Ford 351w.

$3360 for an edelbrock kit right out of the summit catalog pn 35410


MS=350-400 ecm only
MS harness=65
manifold=364
throttle body=430
clt sensor=20
iat sensor=20
3bar map=65
o2 sensor=100 (4 wire)
o2 bung=15
external fuel pump=200
injectors=roughly 450


need i go more

i didnt say wideband i was refering to norrowband

[min301]

Re: EFI

Just for giggles, how about a Ford 351w.

$3360 for an edelbrock kit right out of the summit catalog pn 35410


MS=350-400 ecm only -Edelbrock perf. RPM a/g=$254.95
MS harness=65-Holley 4779 carb=$389.95
manifold=364-Holley blue pump=$132.95
throttle body=430-Summit fuel line kit=$119.95
clt sensor=20-Summit dual feed kit w/ gauge=$37.95
iat sensor=20-Summit carb jet kit=$38.95
3bar map=65-
o2 sensor=100 (4 wire)
o2 bung=15
external fuel pump=200
injectors=roughly 450


need i go more

Looks like a good size difference to me,
You also forgot fuel rails, and crossover hoses, and regulator.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: EFI

Aren't the narrow band ones single wire?

Looks like a good size difference to me,
You also forgot fuel rails, and crossover hoses, and regulator.

Nickel and Dime you......