School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

[horsewidower]

I just spent a frustrating 4 hours trying to get my Haltech e11v2 equipped car to run. I must be fundamentally misunderstanding something. The car sounds like its timing is significantly retarded, yet when we put a timing light on it, the number one cylinder looks to be firing at 10 degrees btdc at start-up. Although, we still haven't gotten it to run, we're just getting it to cough and spit. It backfires through the intake and pops out the exhaust. Anyhow here is what the trigger set up looks like at tdc (the VRT is currently set on the 15th tooth):



It has a 36-1 Motronic trigger and we use a cam synchronizer with a hall effect for the home signal. We set the cam synchronizer to trip the home counter at tdc. The ignition is direct CNP, the fuel injection is sequential. Current values are 9 tooth offset with a trigger angle of 40 btdc. I don't think thats right. Clearly it isn't, its not running.

Bob

[horsewidower]

Re: School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

Here are the Haltech instructions:

Trigger Angle BTDC - This is the angle between the trigger input and the corresponding piston's
(or rotor's) TDC. For multi-tooth triggers such as those found on Toyota?s, Honda?s and Mazda?s,
the trigger point is the tooth defined by the Tooth Offset that is described below. The trigger angle
must be between the largest intended advance angle and the angle between trigger events.
E.g. If the largest ignition advance angle you wanted to use was 32 degrees on a 4 cylinder engine, then
your trigger angle must be between 32 to 180 degrees. Angle between triggers for a 4 cylinder is 720/4 =
180 degrees. For more information on how to set the tooth offset and trigger angle correctly please refer to the quickstart guide you received with your ECU. (I don't have that guide)

? Tooth Offset - The tooth offset is the number of teeth from the Home signal to the tooth that is
chosen to be the trigger tooth. The trigger tooth should be chosen so that the trigger angle can be
dialled into the range described below. If this field is grey and not able to be changed, then ignore
this parameter, as it does not apply for the given trigger.

Thanks.

[dieselgeek]

Re: School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

so, that looks like a 125 degree trigger angle with a zero tooth offset. Is that how your software is configured?


(sorry for the delay, have been busy the past few days!)



Also, this may sound dumb. But double check that you have the plug wires going the right places. Cylinders 1 and 4 should be on a common pack, and 2 &3 should be ganged to the other pack. Make sure your coil trigger wires aren't crossed up either. This combo ran on the dyno once, right?

-scott

[horsewidower]

Re: School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

Thanks Scott.

Its no longer waste spark, its individual CNP GM LSx coils.

Yes it did run, then we stripped the cam synchronizer gear and have been having trouble getting everything timed in since.

Or, its the water in the E-85. > I'm going to drain the tank and get some dry fuel. Then we'll try and get it started.

Bob

[dieselgeek]

Re: School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

If you've been popping and banging on it for a while, get a set of "warmer" plugs (cheap ones) and swap them out every so often.

Fuel soaked plugs aren't covered in carbon. They can get thrashed just by being wet for a while.

[horsewidower]

Re: School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

Wore out a starter!!

Good tip thanks.

[dieselgeek]

Re: School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

Wore out a starter!!

Good tip thanks.

instead of trying to start it, might just pull all 4 plugs, disable the injectors, and crank while checking timing for all 4 cylinders (make a mark on the trigger wheel 180 out from the #1 mark... you get the idea)

also, with the laptop connected, are you getting a sketchy RPM signal, or a consistent cranking RPM? I.e., is it tracking the trigger wheel properly? what about your cam sensor phasing - is it in the right place? if so, is teh sensor maybe wired with reverse polarity? just throwing out some ideas here.

[horsewidower]

Re: School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

The system has a home counter. We set it up to have the cam synch trip the counter at TDC. Is that right, or should we have it trip the counter at 40 BTDC which is the max timing we'll use? I realize that having the injectors sequential is of dubious value at WOT, should we just use multi-point or batch?? We went to sequential to help control the 1000cc injectors at idle.

The rpm signal appears fine, but the timing is jumping all over. I'll pull the plugs (Doh!) it'll speed up the cranking speed, the injectors have been disabled when checking the timing. We lock the timing at 10* and when we hit that, we change the lock to 20* to see if it follows.

Bob

[dieselgeek]

Re: School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

The system has a home counter. We set it up to have the cam synch trip the counter at TDC. Is that right, or should we have it trip the counter at 40 BTDC which is the max timing we'll use? I realize that having the injectors sequential is of dubious value at WOT, should we just use multi-point or batch?? We went to sequential to help control the 1000cc injectors at idle.

The rpm signal appears fine, but the timing is jumping all over. I'll pull the plugs (Doh!) it'll speed up the cranking speed, the injectors have been disabled when checking the timing. We lock the timing at 10* and when we hit that, we change the lock to 20* to see if it follows.

Bob

Where the Cam sensor trips the counter is going to have to follow the Electromotive directions... my guess is, their timing algorithm needs to see that well before TDC however. Let me know if you can't find the answer and I'll call one of my friends there...

Regarding injector control at idle. I realize they teach this at EFI101 but I've never seen it make a difference - with the possible exception of, if you are having to use resistor packs with the electromotive, which slows down the open/close time - is that the case here? if your particular unit supports low impedance injectors without resistor packs, then I say scrap the sequential idea (two sensors to fail versus one) and go with the Pantera coils on wasted spark...


To give you an idea, we idle Huber's mustang at 850rpm, with 160 lb/hr injectors on straight gasoline, and get 14:1 AFRs. While it's true that the "resolution" of pulsewidth is very granular at low duty cycles, you can do things like adjust the fuel pressure a couple PSI up or down from where it's at to make your idle AFRs where you want them.

We also see duty cycles of 85% on huber's injectors at WOT. Do the math. Your combo should be able to idle batch firing just fine... let me know what you think there,

-scott

[horsewidower]

Re: School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

Its a Haltech, not an Electromotive. But I get your point. One of the problems with the Haltech has been the poor manual and difficulty with getting info from the maker. I'll look up the cam synch section in the new manual. And post a question on their website, hopefully they'll answer. A buddy actually called them in Australia and, according to him, their answer on the cam synch was to "fiddle with it 'til it works."

85% on 160s, holy crap.

[dieselgeek]

Re: School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

Its a Haltech, not an Electromotive. But I get your point. One of the problems with the Haltech has been the poor manual and difficulty with getting info from the maker. I'll look up the cam synch section in the new manual. And post a question on their website, hopefully they'll answer. A buddy actually called them in Australia and, according to him, their answer on the cam synch was to "fiddle with it 'til it works."

85% on 160s, holy crap.

if you had this running OK on the dyno, then it's GOT to be something simple that you missed, right?

Are you absolutely sure the polarity of your crank and cam sensors didn't get switched around? the HaltechmotiveEMS whatever it is, isn't going to properly recognize the missing tooth if it became inverted...

-scott

[horsewidower]

Re: School me, Crank trigger angles, tooth offsets, home signals.

Yep, it was running, and quite well. I'll go back through all the connections.

And change the fuel.