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  • #61
    Originally posted by TC View Post
    I'm sure that a lot of people including myself would like to know how anything other than a bias-ply slick will rip the rubber off the track?? Got any links to where I can understand the science behind it??......
    Like I said before, when it's hot a tennis shoe will rip the rubber off. All I can do is say what happens, someone else can come up with the science of it. I don't know much about track prep, but they should cut the vht with more alcohol when it's hot because it will evaporate quicker. If I were Jeff I would just learn to deal with it and have a plan "B". it is what it is, and it's the same for everyone.
    Originally posted by TC
    also boost will make the cam act smaller

    Comment


    • #62
      I can put mine on the Bumper anywhere, ( Not that I want too) I worry more about other guys than mine. The cars keep getting faster every year someones going to bite it hard and I hope they dont, but I worry more each year.
      2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
      First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
      2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
      2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

      Comment


      • #63
        This would be one of the Best Track Prep Guys in the Country and does a lot of the Outlaw Races around the Country

        "I don't know a whole lot about prepping a ring for a beatdown, but I will prep the track for you. If you want a neutral place to race I say Silver dollar in Reynolds, GA. The difference in track prep is this. Normally a slick tire car needs a bit of wheel speed at the hit. If you glue the track too much it stops the tire and when the car tries to get up on the tire it will shake. A radial tire car doesn't want wheel speed. They want to hit the tire and drive off applying a consistent amount of power. But here's the deal. A small tire car, slick or radial can usually get down the same track. It's the big tire slick cars that usually shake more. When I prep a track for small tires, I am heavy on the glue for the first 150 to 200 feet. To a big tire slick car this is considered a "Radial Track" It also depends on rubber also. A radial like to have a buildup of rubber on the track. A fresh scraped track is not a radial cars friend. YOu need slick tire cars to put rubber down as a radial doesn't lay rubber. If you can get a good 1/16 of an inch of rubber on the track, spray it heavy the first 200ft you will get a small tire down the track with no problem. Anyway, I'll prep the track for you guys, just tell me when and where."
        __________________
        Jason Rueckert
        Regional Manager
        VP Racing Fuels -Midwest
        812 878 2026
        [email protected]
        2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
        First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
        2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
        2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

        Comment


        • #64
          Thought TC might like it from someone besides just me.
          2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
          First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
          2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
          2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by JeffMcKC View Post
            Thought TC might like it from someone besides just me.
            Thanks man, guess I learned something new today, it was really something I never thought about............

            Comment


            • #66
              OK,, we done messing up this thread?
              2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
              First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
              2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
              2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by JeffMcKC View Post
                OK,, we done messing up this thread?
                As long as I can still buy you a beer..........
                Last edited by TC; May 15, 2012, 11:13 AM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  I'll tell you this, I wouldn't want Jason Rueckert's job...

                  When he was at our NHRA Lucas Oil Div5 race last year, he worked his ass off trying to get his VP traction product to work and he about pulled his hair out.


                  Ron
                  It's really no different than trying to glue them back on after she has her way.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    So what can be derived from all the foregoing (IMHO alert) is that the rubber layer comes primarily from the spinning soft compund bias ply slicks. Spinning treaded street compound tires have the opposite effect removing parts of the rubber layer as they act like giant coarse grit sanding drums. (This is why so many conventional drag race car drivers get emotional when the import crowd shows up with street tires and front wheel drive as they are the best starting line grinders of all due to them mostly running stick transmissions and the rearward weight transfer which unloads the front tires. Drag race imports are potentially great becuase they run relatively big bas ply slicks with the same weght transfer issues, great for spin.)

                    Drag radials which work best when they dead hook do not generally deposit rubber because they have to spin to do so and then do not recover well. I'd note that the newer thin wall drag radials, Hoosiers in my experience and the New MT Pro from what I hear/read are in the middle in terms recovery, but they still need to dead hook to get decent 60 ft. times and that is away from the starting line condition branch of this thread.

                    I'm curious about radial slicks as many Stock Eliminator cars now run and Jake I believe as well. Not having run those I can't comment on their ideal track condition and how they hook. It appears they act more like a bias ply slick than a Drag Radial.

                    I suspect that the rubber compounding plays a role when we get to really high power cars and that a Pro Stock wnats something different than a top fuel car.
                    Last edited by CDMBill; May 15, 2012, 06:14 PM.
                    Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      The discussion above may have been off-topic, but I learned quite a bit. Thanks guys!
                      Kerby

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Bottom line is, 200-250 STREET cars. The mere fact that guys are trying to run 170-200 mph at 4 different tracks in 5 days, while making the drive is absurd when you take it at face value, just because we've seen it done, doesn't mean we should take it for granted!

                        Don't even try tossing out the "safety card". Power adder cars on small tires are not safe, the very rules those classes are built on are not safe..."build as much power you want, but the equalizing factor is you must run this spec tire, and by the way, no wheelie bars or aerodynamic downforce mods allowed"...brilliant!

                        Those classes are popular all over the country the same reasons the AA/A's were in thier time (Blown fuel Altereds for the kids). For every awesome number thrown up on the board, there are out-of-shape near misses, and wall slappers to be seen as well. To put that onus on the track prep, or event organizer simply isn't right. When YOU drive to the starting line, and YOU light the stage bulbs, and YOU accept the tree, it's YOUR responsibility to get Your car down the track safely.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Temperature and tire shake

                          Originally posted by CDMBill View Post
                          So what can be derived from all the foregoing (IMHO alert) is that the rubber layer comes primarily from the spinning soft compund bias ply slicks. Spinning treaded street compound tires have the opposite effect removing parts of the rubber layer as they act like giant coarse grit sanding drums. (This is why so many conventional drag race car drivers get emotional when the import crowd shows up with street tires and front wheel drive as they are the best starting line grinders of all due to them mostly running stick transmissions and the rearward weight transfer which unloads the front tires. Drag race imports are potentially great becuase they run relatively big bas ply slicks with the same weght transfer issues, great for spin.)

                          Drag radials which work best when they dead hook do not generally deposit rubber because they have to spin to do so and then do not recover well. I'd note that the newer thin wall drag radials, Hoosiers in my experience and the New MT Pro from what I hear/read are in the middle in terms recovery, but they still need to dead hook to get decent 60 ft. times and that is away from the starting line condition branch of this thread.

                          I'm curious about radial slicks as many Stock Eliminator cars now run and Jake I believe as well. Not having run those I can't comment on their ideal track condition and how they hook. It appears they act more like a bias ply slick than a Drag Radial.

                          I suspect that the rubber compounding plays a role when we get to really high power cars and that a Pro Stock wnats something different than a top fuel car.
                          That's a good summary. I'm not sure I agree that radial drag slicks don't put down any rubber, though.

                          There's likely a temperature variable here as well. M/T says their slicks need to be within 15 degrees F of the track temperature for optimal performance. An overheated tire tends to feel "greasy." An underheated tire gives up "stickiness" due to lack of compound softness.

                          And as A/Fuel suggests, the bond of rubber to the track tends to loosen above 130 degrees F, indicating the adhesiveness degrades at high temperatures. I strongly suspect (but cannot yet prove) that within certain limits, rubber sometimes behaves like heat insofar as it "flows" to cold (or perhaps a better way of saying this is that it seeks temperature equalibrium).

                          Thus, on the burnout, the tires lay down plenty of rubber, due in part to the large, localized temperature differential and the "need" to reach equalibrium. This is not to discount the abrasive and friction effects of wheel speed during the burnout, which are still the primary causes of rubber transferring from the tire to the racing surface.

                          Of course sticky tires can be made to "pick up" foreign material at virtually any temperature due to the tread compound, so the "heat flow" concept is often counteracted. But it seems reasonable that a "cold" tire could behave like A/Fuel's tennis shoes at times when track rubber is near its adhesion limits.

                          Tire shake is always a perplexing problem. It is most often explained as as an oscillation or wrapping and unwrapping of a wrinkle-wall tire's sidewall "spring," which is somewhat analogous to wheel hop in a semi-ellipitical spring vehicle. Typically this appears when the wheel speed tries to exceed the tread speed. Thus, hitting a sticky track hard, especially on low air pressures (larger contact patch and a lower effective spring rate of the tire), could result in tire shake, as wheel speed fights tread speed.

                          Given that many radial tires seem to depend somewhat less on the wrinkle-wall spring to work(based on my unscientific observations, which have not much included the very latest generation of radial slicks) , the different "hit" characteristics mentioned by Jason are observable.

                          After we got past all the posturing, this has become a thoughtful and illuminating discussion.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by MoparBilly View Post
                            Bottom line is, 200-250 STREET cars. The mere fact that guys are trying to run 170-200 mph at 4 different tracks in 5 days, while making the drive is absurd when you take it at face value, just because we've seen it done, doesn't mean we should take it for granted!

                            Don't even try tossing out the "safety card". Power adder cars on small tires are not safe, the very rules those classes are built on are not safe..."build as much power you want, but the equalizing factor is you must run this spec tire, and by the way, no wheelie bars or aerodynamic downforce mods allowed"...brilliant!

                            Those classes are popular all over the country the same reasons the AA/A's were in thier time (Blown fuel Altereds for the kids). For every awesome number thrown up on the board, there are out-of-shape near misses, and wall slappers to be seen as well. To put that onus on the track prep, or event organizer simply isn't right. When YOU drive to the starting line, and YOU light the stage bulbs, and YOU accept the tree, it's YOUR responsibility to get Your car down the track safely.
                            I don't think it's "absurd." It's merely an engineering problem with some atypical constraints. In an earlier time, running a 120 m.p.h. car on the street would have been considered by some "absurd."

                            As for small-tire power adder cars being "unsafe," your conclusion (opinion) assumes that the measure of "safety" seems to be a car that does not require as much driver skill and self-restraint to run. No racing car is foolproof, though. So safety must be viewed in relative terms. Small-tire power adder cars represent what's happening in the market. The risk is clearly not unreasonable because track operators can still find willing insurers for their operations. If there were lots of death and injuries assocated with "small tire" cars, then perhaps the safety criticism would have some "traction.' But, given the relatively small number of incidents in comparision to the large number of passes, the cars are reasonably and relatively "safe."

                            Yes, I know that I wrote we shouldn't argue about opinions . . . . ;)

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by MoparBilly View Post
                              Bottom line is, 200-250 STREET cars. The mere fact that guys are trying to run 170-200 mph at 4 different tracks in 5 days, while making the drive is absurd when you take it at face value, just because we've seen it done, doesn't mean we should take it for granted!

                              Don't even try tossing out the "safety card". Power adder cars on small tires are not safe, the very rules those classes are built on are not safe..."build as much power you want, but the equalizing factor is you must run this spec tire, and by the way, no wheelie bars or aerodynamic downforce mods allowed"...brilliant!

                              Those classes are popular all over the country the same reasons the AA/A's were in thier time (Blown fuel Altereds for the kids). For every awesome number thrown up on the board, there are out-of-shape near misses, and wall slappers to be seen as well. To put that onus on the track prep, or event organizer simply isn't right. When YOU drive to the starting line, and YOU light the stage bulbs, and YOU accept the tree, it's YOUR responsibility to get Your car down the track safely.

                              No one said it was not but what happens to the guy driving and the Event when that day comes? Saying to some guys wife or everyone there well he is dead or wont walk but he put the belts on so,,, Line them up and lets run them, I dont think that fits with the Spirit of why guys go. I felt real bad for the guy that lost the front of his Mustang last year has nothing to do with if it was the track, it was a warning shot.
                              2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
                              First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
                              2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
                              2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Speedzzter.blogspot View Post
                                That's a good summary. I'm not sure I agree that radial drag slicks don't put down any rubber, though.

                                There's likely a temperature variable here as well. M/T says their slicks need to be within 15 degrees F of the track temperature for optimal performance. An overheated tire tends to feel "greasy." An underheated tire gives up "stickiness" due to lack of compound softness.

                                And as A/Fuel suggests, the bond of rubber to the track tends to loosen above 130 degrees F, indicating the adhesiveness degrades at high temperatures. I strongly suspect (but cannot yet prove) that within certain limits, rubber sometimes behaves like heat insofar as it "flows" to cold (or perhaps a better way of saying this is that it seeks temperature equalibrium).

                                Thus, on the burnout, the tires lay down plenty of rubber, due in part to the large, localized temperature differential and the "need" to reach equalibrium. This is not to discount the abrasive and friction effects of wheel speed during the burnout, which are still the primary causes of rubber transferring from the tire to the racing surface.

                                Of course sticky tires can be made to "pick up" foreign material at virtually any temperature due to the tread compound, so the "heat flow" concept is often counteracted. But it seems reasonable that a "cold" tire could behave like A/Fuel's tennis shoes at times when track rubber is near its adhesion limits.

                                Tire shake is always a perplexing problem. It is most often explained as as an oscillation or wrapping and unwrapping of a wrinkle-wall tire's sidewall "spring," which is somewhat analogous to wheel hop in a semi-ellipitical spring vehicle. Typically this appears when the wheel speed tries to exceed the tread speed. Thus, hitting a sticky track hard, especially on low air pressures (larger contact patch and a lower effective spring rate of the tire), could result in tire shake, as wheel speed fights tread speed.

                                Given that many radial tires seem to depend somewhat less on the wrinkle-wall spring to work(based on my unscientific observations, which have not much included the very latest generation of radial slicks) , the different "hit" characteristics mentioned by Jason are observable.

                                After we got past all the posturing, this has become a thoughtful and illuminating discussion.
                                Your clueless is all, Drag Radials will wad a side wall plenty. They dont lay down rubber because they are not spinning as they leave the line. Take your finger and put it on a razor blade its fine now pick it up and move it again Thats a radial, now slide it thats a bias tire.
                                2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
                                First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
                                2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
                                2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

                                Comment

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