Junkyard Formula Poll

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  • 38P
    Banned
    • Jun 2009
    • 5738

    #1

    Junkyard Formula Poll

    I'm thrashing hard on an alternative to the unappreciated "storebought" pony car (which will be "Plan B" for DW '13 if something goes horribly wrong in the next four months).

    And while the respectable "Billy Rosewood" alternative is postponed, a cheap and ratty substitute is taking shape in the shop.

    The build is now to the point that two hard decisions must be made in the next few days:

    1. 11.50 or 10.80 e.t.

    2. Big block or small block

    I've already got the "cores" and support parts to assemble and install either engine combo. And either one would use the same combination of power adders. The horsepower required would be similar, but easier to hit with more cubes (less power adder required but slightly more power necessary due to the extra weight of the big mill/transmission). And a lot of the supporting hard parts don't need to change.

    The big block would be more durable at DD power levels. The small block would be lighter.

    On the other hand, parts costs and transmission cost would be significantly higher with a big block. And there would be no cost-effective overdrive possible in 2013, so fuel cost would also go way up (no trailering to Bowling Green). And a big block would likely prompt second guessing ("You're only running THAT quick with a BIG BLOCK?")

    As for 11.50 or 10.80 . . . only three of the top 32 in the DD class of DW '12 averaged quicker than 11.50. 10.80 would take a lot more safety gear (the main problem being getting a legal roll bar fabbed-up in time). And 10.80s put a lot more strain on the spare junk that this mess will rely upon.

    But most likely running 11.50 will require some "brakelight racing" to keep from running too quick (more than a couple of DW '12 DD cars were in the same boat). And there is some piece of mind to having proper safety gear and running quick enough to be solidly in the top half of the bracket.

    So what say you?
    25
    10.80 Big Block
    28.00%
    7
    11.50 Big Block
    20.00%
    5
    10.80 Small Block
    28.00%
    7
    11.50 Small Block
    20.00%
    5
    Forget the "junk" and run that "Storebought" Pony again
    4.00%
    1
    Last edited by 38P; May 2, 2013, 04:17 AM.
  • Beagle
    "Flounder"
    • Apr 2011
    • 13804

    #2
    sounds like the house of Beagle. Enough parts to do either... the BBF won't have as much stress on it as a 10.8 SBF. Look at BBR's setup for a great example. It's reasonably easy on parts, rock simple and hammer effective. Make up your mind and get wrenching is all I have to say.

    10.8 is kind of a pain ITA because it's just barely into $$ parts - trans shield and axles above the 11.49 requirements plus I am betting they start looking for the SFI stuff harder:

    10.99 to 10.0
    Snell or SFI approved helmet
    Driveshaft loop
    Flywheel/Flexplate SFI 1.1/1.2
    Roll Bar (5 point min.)
    SFI Jacket
    Aftermarket rear axles
    Harmonic Balancer SFI 18.1
    Transmission shield SFI 4.1

    the dark side of me says turbo kit for the blue kazoo and get kicked off the track on day one.

    /edit - if you are worried about gas, you probably shouldn't be doing this. haha. I'd expect at least 10 mpg with a 460, c6, 28" tire, 3.27's.

    /edit two - oh , and don't be a candy ass. Nobody is interested in seeing brakelights. Put a cage in it. As Bob says "It's supposed to be fun, not dead."
    Last edited by Beagle; May 2, 2013, 05:10 AM.
    Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

    Comment

    • poison gas
      Hero BangShifter
      • Oct 2011
      • 330

      #3
      It's cool to run SB and go fast. It's not that hard to put in a store bought rollbar unless it's a model A, then you have to build it yourself. If Brent can run 10.80's with that big old pontiac, you can do it too.
      Go ahead, pull my finger.

      Comment

      • bgblockelcamino
        BangShifter
        • Dec 2012
        • 100

        #4
        what kind of car? do the cookie cutter swap a junkyard lsx powerplant in there and run it

        Comment

        • Beagle
          "Flounder"
          • Apr 2011
          • 13804

          #5
          Originally posted by bgblockelcamino View Post
          what kind of car? do the cookie cutter swap a junkyard lsx powerplant in there and run it
          oh hell. Here we go... in 3... 2....
          Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

          Comment

          • Bamfster
            Lord God King BangShifter
            • Apr 2008
            • 10445

            #6
            Yup .... an LS w/a cam swap and maybe heads should get you right to that 11.50 break. Remember, as you add the safety equip, it takes more HP to run the same #.
            Whiskey for my men ... and beer for their horses!

            Comment

            • Beagle
              "Flounder"
              • Apr 2011
              • 13804

              #7
              Yeah, an LS swap

              (DUCKING AND RUNNING and laughing maniacally)


              Put the heads and cam in/on the BBF.
              Last edited by Beagle; May 2, 2013, 05:50 AM.
              Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

              Comment

              • bgblockelcamino
                BangShifter
                • Dec 2012
                • 100

                #8
                Originally posted by Beagle View Post
                oh hell. Here we go... in 3... 2....
                i agree, but bang for the buck they are hard to beat. I was die hard big block chevy guy too till mine blew up lol. didn't have the money to repair it so i put a high mileage junkyard setup. had 250k on motor and trans when i put it in. ran 10.50 index for 2 years with it. also street drove it for 4 years too. I blew the motor at 265k after i turbod it lol.

                Comment

                • Beagle
                  "Flounder"
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 13804

                  #9
                  Speedy here is a dyed in the blue oval wool Ford guy ... you might as well suggest he set the car on fire in the living room.
                  Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

                  Comment

                  • JeffMcKC
                    Legendary BangShifter
                    • Oct 2007
                    • 7024

                    #10
                    Put a 351 EFI in something and add a little spray over the top
                    2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
                    First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
                    2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
                    2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

                    Comment

                    • bgblockelcamino
                      BangShifter
                      • Dec 2012
                      • 100

                      #11
                      i would like to see the Mod motors get retrofitted more often but the packaging sucks on them. and the pushrods motors are becoming more scarce in the ford world as most been out of production for a while now

                      Comment

                      • LAGNAF
                        Superhero BangShifter
                        • Oct 2011
                        • 749

                        #12
                        put a cyote in it..
                        Dan, Co-Pilot Drag Week 06
                        Drag Week '11 just Me and my Dad in my 53 Chevy, which was his Dads old truck
                        Drag Week '12 plus one day...Me and Dad in my 53 again....
                        Drag Week 2013 with my father in law.. New BEST ET/MPH 11.87@112

                        Comment

                        • BBR
                          Chief Do'er
                          • Nov 2007
                          • 11715

                          #13
                          I suppose it really depends upon what car we are talking about.

                          Some are not very easy to plop a BBF into. Early Mustangs, Mavericks come to mind. Fox chassis cars are much more flexible (no pun intended) and have had every engine imaginable swapped in over the years.

                          If it currently has no drivetrain or an unusable drivetrain, like a 4 banger Fox, I'd say build a big motor and not worry if others think you are 'under performing'.

                          If it has a usable drivetrain, like a mass air 5.0L, I would say start there and upgrade. Plenty of parts are available to increase their output to acceptable levels. Then beat on it like it wronged you in a past life.
                          Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
                          1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ild-it-s-alive
                          1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...60-and-a-turbo
                          1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302/552 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
                          1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
                          1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail

                          Comment

                          • Beagle
                            "Flounder"
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 13804

                            #14
                            Coyote transplant is a lot of work... I have a friend who is putting one in a 70 Mustang and it's not a simple bolt in sadly.

                            The 351's were in about half a billion trucks and vans. The F4TE roller ready 351 block is a lot more common than I used to think it was. I picked up a decent short block out of a Lightning last year for 400 bucks.

                            Then again, the 460 all over the garage and "assembly room" (dining room) was 400.00 complete with accessories and a good C6 hanging off of it. I'd do the BBF.
                            Last edited by Beagle; May 2, 2013, 07:45 AM.
                            Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

                            Comment

                            • 38P
                              Banned
                              • Jun 2009
                              • 5738

                              #15
                              More info

                              Good discussion! Thanks!

                              The car is a non-Mustang Fox-body roller that I've been working on for a while now (I want there to be a little suspense about it though). Thus, there's not any prefab, bolt-in roll bars for it (just weld-up, u-fit-it kits . . . and I'm not trusting my ancient noggin (or passing tech) to my welding skills).

                              The roll bar is the only sub 11.50 safety gear that will be a problem to get installed by DW '13 "Zero Hour." It already has a good 8.8 Traction lok axle with 3.55s in it (I have 3.73s I need the extra r.p.m.).

                              There's not going to be an LS anything. Or a Coyote. Or a 4.6. This is a dirt-ball project built out of scraps and stuff just lying around.

                              What I've got in my current parts inventory are four running 302s (two rollers and two old-school flat-tappet mills) and one smogger 460 that I purchased for mock-up use in another, endless project, but could be pressed into moderate h.p. service with a little freshening.

                              A 351W would be a better alternative, but I don't have one and don't want to waste time searching for and extracting a useable one.

                              The SBF is going to be an easier and quicker build because I've already got the vast majority of the installation parts already siting on the shelf . . . and a complete, running V8 parts car of the same year and body style.

                              But BBR's Mustang makes going BBF look very attractive for a bracket car. Power adders can make up for the lack of a stroker kit, good heads and a giant mechanical roller cam at this E.T. level. And a junk 460 will live at substantially higher power levels for longer than any OEM 302. Besides a 302's been done thousands of times in every conceivable Fox body.

                              However, a 460 turning 3,500 r.p.m. for ~3,000 miles on the highway is going to suck down a lot more fuel and make a lot more noise than an SBF paired with an overdrive transmission. And the 460 install, while fairly elementary, isn't as "bolt-in/plug-n-play" as an SBF in a Fox. A 460/C6 is going to add hundreds of pounds of weight on the wrong end of the car. Most will expect even an all-iron 460 with a power adder in a Fox body anything to run quicker than 10.80.

                              To safely run 11.50 with a good bolt on suspension and real slicks (with a little in reserve), I'm estimating I'll need a rock-solid 490 h.p. (or perhaps a little less if I get the weight low enough.

                              10.80s with bracket-like consistency means 600-650 h.p., depending on weight. That could be pushing the envelope a bit with OEM 302 block durability. I could get the minimum number down to 550 h.p. if forced to.

                              I'll likely team nitrous with something else for redundancy, visual interest . . . and just to make absolutely sure I've brought enough to make The Show. After last year's fiasco, I'm somewhat unwilling to rely solely on the bottle and solenoids unless I absolutely have to.

                              (if "Plan B" has to run again, hopefully the repaired Zex kit will decide to show up ... but I don't really relish spending another year on the bubble . . . or waiting for another nitrous hic-up)

                              Comment

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