Kind of wore out on MS, time for a new box?

[Arrowhead]

I built my first MS about 5 years ago and learned a lot. It was a great project and ran the MS-II for 7000 trouble free miles. I've built a new MS-II for my current project and frankly, it hasn't gone as smooth as the first time. I still have some new tuning issues that need to be worked out and all the branching out of firmware, hardware and tuning software made my head hurt. No offense to the hardcore MS guys here - in fact Diesel Geeks conversion instruction for EDIS-8 to COP worked perfectly for me - thanks.

That being said, I'm hearing good things about the newer generations of ECU's out there. For example, a fellow MS convert friend of mine recently helped setup a Holley HP on a blown big block and he was very impressed and he may go that way on his next build rather than MS.

So, I guess what I’m looking for is an ECU that I can basically replace my MS with something that is fairly compatible (remove MS ECU install brand X and modify my existing harness). I'm running 4.6 Ford modular, 6-71 blower, Enderle injector scoop for throttle. The MS-II v3.0 runs fuel and spark, stock Ford crank trigger and EDIS-8 box wired to 8 COPS, 8 multiport high imp injectors, GM air and clt temp sensors, controls fuel pump and cooling fan.

The Holley HP looks like it will fit the bill, but not sure if it's compatible w/ the crank trigger wheel and also looks to need some add on to run the two wire COP's. The box is fairly priced around $900 I think, but don't want get into buying lots of patches and making lots of modifications to make it work because it's geared toward GM.

Any thoughts?

[Caveman Tony]

get a quadrajet ;-)

[Caveman Tony]

Does an LS motor ECU create any compatibility issues? They're pretty tunable with various tuning boxes... Predator, etc..

[Caveman Tony]

And, oh yeah, hey, is this thingy goin' on PT?

[JeffMcKC]

I dont know why if its new, you did not get a MS III

Why not get a BIG Stuff and Data Loggers? It will all depend on your goals sounds like your just wanting a plug and play there are none of those they all have Horror stories

[dieselgeek]

Honestly, Standalone EFI Problems are not specific to the brand. I've had guys ditch their BS3 super happy with an MS1 or MS2, and guys that ditched MS and went with Holley's new stuff and swore it's awesome.

Whenever I get questions like this, I urge the user to try and isolate and fix their current problems.

EDIS with COPs is really not a great solution. I got that from FAST and don't really like it. You might consider going with the VR sensor directly into the MS2, and control a set of coils using a transistor/ignitor - eliminating the EDIS-8 module altogether.

You are absolutely correct, the Megasquirt stuff is so spread out and confusing now - versus 5 years ago - that it's just about impossible to figure out what you really need. I could not agree with you more - it's frustrating, because with greater Universality, comes greater Complexity. A true pain in the ass.


I'd be willing to get on the phone with you for a while and help figure out your current issues if you like!! But I bet you that you would have the same problems with a BS3 or any other standalone; cars with complete swaps, and all homebuilt electrical systems, are VERY susceptible to electrical noise gremlins that can be a BITCH to track down. Anyways, count me in if you want to solve it. Otherwise, I like FAST because even though their box is a little old fashioned, they make a strong effort at putting good tech support within your reach (phone support). Be prepared to spend a ton of money though, and still might have to re-do the car's electrical system.

We could do it as a post here. A couple guys like JeffMcKC, CDM_Bill went through similar hair-pulling electrical issues, but they stuck it out and are happy now.

Either way, keep us posted!

[BKBridges]

electrical gremlins vs new box

Homebuilt electronics can be a real PIA with EMI and RFI. Many large sums have been spent by companies with lots at stake to reduce susceptibility. In my experience the aftermarket, non MS boxes have good protection. Ive had problems with MEFI susceptibility due to bad mounting location (keep the coil far away) and FAST due to bad termination of harness connectors. Didnt have any issues with the 3 BS3 installs though (great harnessing and lots of grounds). If you like to tune, Id go with BS3. If you need a lot of support, FAST FXI, and check all the connectors before you install (I solder them when possible)... Using factory cam and crank sensors never seems to work properly... I use MSD crank triggers and/or dual sync distributors. costs a bit more upfront, but seems to always work great! Im going on 50K miles on my first BS3 install, and thats on a Jensen Interceptor with Lucas wiring...no problems so far.

Biting the bullet
Bruce K Bridges

[dieselgeek]

Homebuilt electronics can be a real PIA with EMI and RFI. Many large sums have been spent by companies with lots at stake to reduce susceptibility. In my experience the aftermarket, non MS boxes have good protection.

Here's some factual data regarding noise rejection and standalone EMS's.

The ones that have put in major effort to be less susceptible to noise, and have passed the same tests as OEM systems:
(1) Edelbrock's Pro Tuner EFI system, based on the Mototron OEM system
(2) ProEFI which is based on the same Mototron system as above
(3) Holley's new systems, Dominator/Avenger, also based on OEM hardware
(4) Megasquirt's EMS-Pro, passed all the OEM tests and more for RFI/EMF/coupled noise.

Examples of systems with minimal attention to noise susceptibility:
(1) BS3
(2) FAST-XFI
(3) AEM series 1 and 2
(4) GEN 7 DFI


A good way to help you understand which ones tried harder to reject noise, is the number and size of grounds. Systems with 4-10 smaller gauge ground wires, just like OEM computers, are a good indication that the manufacturer gives a crap about noise. Systems with a single ring terminal ground - not so good at noise rejection.

There's a lot more to it, in the design of the circuit board, whether or not you dump the flyback/dirty 12v back onto the board's 12v plane or outside the box so it can be re-filtered, etc.

I've replaced as many "expensive" standalones with noise problems as I have "homemade" systems. Meanwhile I've run a "homemade" box on the Miller/Adams EMC entry for 2 years now and, thanks to the tricks our electrical guru applied in the harness, I have some of the most stable power and ground supplies I've ever logged. That's unusual for a dyno environment where there's usually no alternator, just a battery and a cheap battery charger that bounces voltage up and down, thousands of times per second.

I guess what I am saying is, it takes a lot of experience to look at and decide which systems are built to reject noise issues, which come in many flavors. Good wiring practices and avoidance of power coupled noise, will make ALL of the above systems work just fine. Bad practices will make ALL of them run like crap. In my opinion, quality of vehicle power and ground supplies are the Number One most important items for a successful EFI install. It sounds like yours are working good, which is a good thing and means your power, grounds, and wiring are all working properly.

[BKBridges]

Im game

Here's some factual data regarding noise rejection and standalone EMS's.


It sounds like yours are working good, which is a good thing and means your power, grounds, and wiring are all working properly.

Being a simple mechanical engineer with a fluids background I must defer. My experience with EMI RFI is in the life support industry. Board level design is key.

I can only go from personal experience on the various conversions I have installed tuned and supported: (BS3, FAST FXI, FAST EZ, Accel (var), Painless MEFI, Factory Dodge circa 98) Most all were street/strip installs under 700hp for daily driving. Looking forward to a ProEFI install next month.
IMO dont base any decision on conversion hardware on elec interference specs alone...
I do like systems that are easy to understand and program from an "after-sales" aspect, even though I dont sell them (but my friends/customers buy them and I get involved anyway via install or tech support)
Bruce