Hot weather tune up?

[dieselgeek]

Do you recall what the frequency range or changes were?

To the other ponit it seems you could control individual cylinder length of spark by changing individual coil saturation times on the IGN 1A's? Not to mention clynder to cynder spark timing in terms of the starting point. This is fun.

What's the frequency Kenneth?

Length of time of the spark is a function of whether or not the spark is capacitive (really short) or inductive (longer). I do not understand the "frequency" of spark because that is based on the RPM the engine is turning. If the engine is turning 5000rpm then the "spark frequency" on one cylinder is 2500 events per minute, or 41.7 sparks per second, which is 41.7 hz. That's the same no matter what type of ignition being used.

I'm not sure what rpm a Mag is good for, but the IGN1-As I have spun up over 11,000rpm in an engine making 12hp per cubic inch with no problem.

Scott, how much power do your engines make? and what is the exact displacement?

-Scott

[JeffMcKC]

I was just reading a little about this, they were saying on a Top Fuel car that by half track the sparkplugs are wasted and it's actually firing off just the compression and the glowing red exhaust valves for the rest of the run...........

Dont believe everything you read.

[JeffMcKC]

Very much a consern....Break anything on the exhaust side of the valvetraine and it will probably make a mess...
If a miss fire happens it usualy drop a hole and the way we are running it will cost us about 5-600 hp.
Through the middle of the run we have about 28 gpm....that is a lot of fuel.
I personally worked on a car that shook the mags off, and they were only held on by the wires, and it ran a 6.00 flat.
I've also seen it twist the mag drive off and had to go pick the intake/injector off of the track.....
I have to think about it more, but once you compress it in an exhaust valve banging (we all are doing it) engine, it might not take that much to light if off anyway.
I'm thinking...not an expert by any means. I just have to justify why I would put a 30k engine to the test.
Another thing, we probably have one of the most powerful a/fuel engine combo's out there. No kidding.
Our engine went to 5000+ all weekend and it got us to the finals in ohio. We were bleeding fuel and taking timing out and Robin still had to peddle it 500ft out (great job!)
I'm all over the clutch right now (my area)

The less timing needed the better the tune is as a whole. If you can complete the burn at 20* instead of 70* it will result in more power because you will have less pressure in the cylinder lost just fighting to complete the cycle.

[anotheridiot]

Do you recall what the frequency range or changes were?

To the other ponit it seems you could control individual cylinder length of spark by changing individual coil saturation times on the IGN 1A's? Not to mention clynder to cynder spark timing in terms of the starting point. This is fun.

What's the frequency Kenneth?

No, the guy made it seem like a trade secret. Just use the term frequency, tell your buddies how great your mallory is firing your fuel car and send them to him for the special treatment. Its something we could spend days and days researching to build a better mousetrap that might end up making a world of sense, but for now, its just something to throw out there and find someone smarter than me to help explain it lol.

[anotheridiot]

The less timing needed the better the tune is as a whole. If you can complete the burn at 20* instead of 70* it will result in more power because you will have less pressure in the cylinder lost just fighting to complete the cycle.

I dont know about this. We were conservative running 35-38 degrees of lead because it saved parts. We easily should have been in the low 50's to create more power, but our parts sure lasted a long time, which told us we were never too lean with fuel or fire. Less lead, easier on parts, less power, more lead, harder on parts, buku power.

[JeffMcKC]

I AM NOT TRYING TO COME OFF ASS SMART ASSED AS THIS WILL SOUND.

Its always true more timing is better, crank it up to 95*

This is why I lead with "enough timing to complete the burn" if more timing makes more power at 50*, than 20* (this is if everything else in the tune stays the same) , then 20* is not completeing the burn cycle and power is going out the exhaust valve, unless adding more fuel means you need more advance to complete the burn cycle. I dont know, if I really buy that the fuel used is going to change the way engines make the most power. It may change the bandaides used because of parts available or tune up used. A blown fuel car thats "ON" does not tear up that many parts, but one thing off and it wont make it out of the burnout, then they pay hell finding whats changed or where to go to fix it. I dont know really if they are even close to the level of Prostock for understanding the engine end of things. It seems to be more like lets just make a huge amount of power hope the cylinders stay lit, and try to manage the power with comp and blower speed to put it in a normal window they have seen before and work with the clutch to get down track.

Dont get me wrong its all cool as hell. If it works it works.

[dieselgeek]

Scott, if you're worried about trying something new on a $30,000 motor, here are my thoughts: I think the problem is that your current ignition system isn't keeping track of engine position accurately and it's launching sparks outside the timing window that you believe or hope it's running. You've shared a few things with us, such as "timing visibly bouncing around" and "un-smoothed RacePak RPM data looks like a saw tooth" - while I know we could stick a IGN1A set on there, and add a higher resolution trigger wheel, and improve that timing accuracy, you don't, and I understand the concern.

So what about a different approach, maybe try to improve your current setup to get that timing accurate, that Racepak data to be stable? We have a similar ignition trigger system working on Doc's car, and the electricals are sorted enough that he gets solid data from the MSD crank trigger and his MS3 is planting those sparks accurately... it's possible to improve what you already have, usually.

Presumably you are using a Points box or a programmable ignition that goes in between the Magneto's VR pickup and it's "trigger" to control the timing ramps you talk about. That box would be my target for improvement, have you tried running directly off the mag and seeing what your timing light shows, if it smooths out and also does your Mag have a tach output so you can record it with the Racepak?

[CDMBill]

Scott, does the spark scatter occur on alcohol or low percentages? The other possible place to introduce spsrk scatter is the mechanical drive part of the system. Again, my ignorance gets in the way, but are the mag's driven off the cam? Is the cam driven by a belt or a chain a gear drive?

Do the blown alcohol guys run the same dual mag set-up you guys do? And, is it a class requirement the samw way Pro Stock has a spec MSD ignition box?

[TC]

The less timing needed the better the tune is as a whole. If you can complete the burn at 20* instead of 70* it will result in more power because you will have less pressure in the cylinder lost just fighting to complete the cycle.

What you are failing to realize is Nitro burns very slow and that is the reason they run so much advance, they need the lead time............

Also realize that once you drop a hole on a Nitro motor there is no relighting it, it's down for the count.......

And I wonder how those coils DG is talking about will do when the Flame Front on a Nitro motor wants to put itself out.........

There is a reason they have been using Magneto's for half a century and haven't changed from them..... IMO that is because no other ignition system can produce the spark energy to keep the Nitro lit the whole run......... Because I'm sure if they could do some sort of COP setup they would be running it by now........

[TC]

Meanwhile, just a little primer for you, the mag is CDI (capacitive discharge)

You might want to double check that, as much as I've read everything states Magnetos as being Inductive......

In fact you should just read this and know what your up against........ Sounds like you might be trying to reinvent the wheel......

http://www.msdpromag.com/pdf/promag.pdf

[TC]

Do the blown alcohol guys run the same dual mag set-up you guys do? And, is it a class requirement the samw way Pro Stock has a spec MSD ignition box?

No, the alcohol guys can get away with ProMag 12's and ProMag 20's, you need the ProMag 44's to lite Nitro.......

Also they are Crank triggered, fire the sparkplug for 26 degrees of crankshaft rotation, they make a programmable timing box for it and are good through 12,000rpm.......

[JeffMcKC]

What you are failing to realize is Nitro burns very slow and that is the reason they run so much advance, they need the lead time............

Also realize that once you drop a hole on a Nitro motor there is no relighting it, it's down for the count.......

And I wonder how those coils DG is talking about will do when the Flame Front on a Nitro motor wants to put itself out.........

There is a reason they have been using Magneto's for half a century and haven't changed from them..... IMO that is because no other ignition system can produce the spark energy to keep the Nitro lit the whole run......... Because I'm sure if they could do some sort of COP setup they would be running it by now........

Do you have air conditioning in your car TC, lots of years they never had that you know and they ran just fine, same with a carb now we have EFI, no flooding in the winter, engines last longer, no tune up two times a year. Things get better all the time or do you sill use a wooden coil? Do they use a mag on the Space shuttle?? Oh and the guy from FireWire says they will light off a Top Fuel Car too.

TC really,,, what you’re talking about? Do you even read posts before you try to respond? Two things, I am talking combustion time as a whole, I am not telling them a number to run it at that would be foolish but I don’t think there is 50* of timing variation.
Your over simplistic view from what you have read is not adding to the discussion, it left you a long time ago ESPN explanations are not helping. If you are lighting off the fuel with valves and compression why does timing even matter? You said that is how it works remember? Controlled burns are what make power
Yes it may be a slower burning fuel that’s a given, WE ALL KNOW THIS YOU ARE NOT ADDING ANY THING BY POSTING IT IN EVERY THREAD, but the end of combustion will need happen at the right time for max power to late the power goes out the port, to early it pushes backwards on the crank more than the power added. There is not 50* between the two points I don’t think on any engine. It’s a slower burning fuel we all get that so can we move past that? To go from Pump Gas to C-16 also is a faster to a slower fuel (c-16 is a slower fuel) But we add comp and work on chambers to burn the fuel more efficiently, so it ends at the right time and does not go out the exhaust or have to have more timing used to complete the combustion at the right time, but when built around it less timing is used. Do you understand better yet? If you could read it on the net they would not be where they are with this.
http://vdlfuelsystems.com/?p=273
Taken from the link above.
2. Nitro methane Fueled, Supercharged Engines – looking at these plugs is like looking down a gun barrel to see the bullet coming – if you see it it’s too late! You should look for heat in the center wire with a light blue being normal and the next step hotter being burnt and gone. Concerning denotation, if you see it in the plug it’s too late. You’d better start pulling it apart as the piston, rings and/or cylinder will surely be damaged. In choosing a plug for these engines you must consider the tremendous rate at which the heat builds up in these cylinders. It can build up so fast it will cause the center wire to expand too quickly, cracking the insulator radically as well as vertically. Because of this if the plugs are to be used again after one run they should be inspected under an inspection light. Some engine tuners like to run an extended tip plug in order to help keep the fuel mixture from fouling the plug and then they read the percent of ground wire burned off as an indication of the rich/lean condition.

What do you guys log can you post any of it? Timing, fuel pressures, rpm, drive shaft speeds. Please don’t take my erratic train of thoughts for being a ass on this, just running stuff through my head as I post, not always in order they should be. Its out of my realm but thats whats very interesting in it.

[dieselgeek]

I'm gonna go meet Scott, and stand next to his A-Fueler so I too can become an expert on Nitromethane and Ignition :-/

[TC]

I'm gonna go meet Scott, and stand next to his A-Fueler so I too can become an expert on Nitromethane and Ignition :-/

No expert here, just relaying what I've been reading about........ So don't kill the messenger.........

The problem is you keep thinking Gasoline, and Nitro is nothing like it.......... Like I said A/Fuel said that a long time ago, that you can take everything you know about tuning a gas engine and through it out the window, when it comes to running nitro........ Those are his words not mine.........

And here's a good example to show you what your coil would be like in a Nitro application.... take a piece of paper and light just the very corner of it, then take another piece of paper and light the whole bottom edge of it..... Now tell me which piece of paper is going to burn up faster??...... Of course the piece of paper that you just lit the corner of will burn slower, because the initial amount of heat is less than the piece of paper that you lit the whole bottom edge is producing...... Thing is even if those IGN-1A coils do light the Nitro the spark's not going to be as efficient as the ProMag is going to deliver so your going to end up with a slower burn rate, which I'd say you'd probably end up needing more lead with the IGN-1A's to to create the same amount of power as the ProMag would do........

[JeffMcKC]

Thats a whole lot of "If" going on. For a guy thats just reading. Dont you have a Turbo Car thats going to show us how its all done to work on?