Drag Week '13 Fuel System Plumbing?

[38P]

Getting ready to order fuel system parts ASAP . . .

Minimum specs:

1. Must pass NHRA tech
2. Must hold up for thousands of street miles
3. Must flow enough fuel at EFI pressures (43+ psi) to run 10s in a ~3,500lb car with some margin for error (.65 BSFC/700+ hp)
4. Must be somewhat alcohol compatible (maybe not for this year, but who knows what the future holds)
5. Hopefully won't cost an arm or a leg.

Any opinions or experience?

What about Push-lok?
Steel hard lines (I haven't really found anything with enough OD yet?) Something else?

Where would YOU buy it?

[squirrel]

I can tell you what I've done, which seems to work ok for many years and many thousands of miles. But it doesn't fit your specs, which I find to be a bit optimistic for what you're planning on doing.

EFI is neat, you can do wonderful things with it. But if you want to get a car running quick and easily, nothing beats a carb or two. A Holley blue pump and regulator will feed 700 hp. Simple, cheap, easy, it works.

I'll be watching to see what systems work for the EFI version....one of these days I might go there.

[TheSilverBuick]

You can flow a lot of fuel at 43psi.

Jim, what size pick up tube do you have on your car?

[squirrel]

I have a 1/2" pickup tube running to the bottom rear center of the tank, and 1/2" od steel line from the pump almost to the regulators, there is some -8 braided along the way too. 3/8" steel tube from the regs to the carbs.

[TheSilverBuick]

That makes sense, just wanted to be sure I'm running a 3/8th line to my surge tank that is roughly a quart, and a pair of 3/8th lines to the fuel rails with a fuel pump on each (or will be shortly anyways, it's plumbed up). But I am not making anywhere near 700HP. If the pumps are anywhere near what they are rated for and if my engine could actually consume that much fuel, it'd take around 4 minutes for my surge tank to run dry if my math is good.

[BBR]

-8 Aeroquip blue or black push-lok hose. Easy peezy.

The Summit or Jegs brand of hose *might* pass, but I do not believe they are actually NHRA approved.

IF you want to run a return style regulator, make sure the return line is at least -8 or you may have problems getting the fuel pressure adjusted low enough for a carb.

I'd run an electric pump of your choice. I have an A1000 and could not be happier with it.

[38P]

I can tell you what I've done, which seems to work ok for many years and many thousands of miles. But it doesn't fit your specs, which I find to be a bit optimistic for what you're planning on doing.

EFI is neat, you can do wonderful things with it. But if you want to get a car running quick and easily, nothing beats a carb or two. A Holley blue pump and regulator will feed 700 hp. Simple, cheap, easy, it works.

I'll be watching to see what systems work for the EFI version....one of these days I might go there.

I strongly considered carbs . . . But with only a stack of old Q-Jets in inventory . . . I was going to be buying all new stuff anyhow . . .

(BTW, I did spend some quality time with Cliff Ruggles' book, but ultimately decided against "Mission Impossible" with Rochesters).

Going Holley (a company I hate, BTW) really wasn't going to be that much cheaper. The big issue is tuning for manifold pressures above atmospheric (hint, hint).

And The Silver Buick, DG, and DIY Autotune http://www.diyautotune.com/make Megasquirt sound so attractive . . . .

[38P]

The Summit or Jegs brand of hose *might* pass, but I do not believe they are actually NHRA approved.

I heard the rulebook actually has certain part numbers that are legal . . . not verified.

IF you want to run a return style regulator, make sure the return line is at least -8 or you may have problems getting the fuel pressure adjusted low enough for a carb.

When I was considering carbs, I came to this conclusion (BTW one of Ruggles' claims is that a Q-Jet's lack of float bowl/needle-n-seat area can be crutched-up with a good return-style fuel system and sufficient volume)

I'd run an electric pump of your choice. I have an A1000 and could not be happier with it.

That's one of the ones I'm considering. Not happy about the price, though.

[Beagle]

Getting ready to order fuel system parts ASAP . . .

Minimum specs:

1. Must pass NHRA tech
2. Must hold up for thousands of street miles
3. Must flow enough fuel at EFI pressures (43+ psi) to run 10s in a ~3,500lb car with some margin for error (.65 BSFC/700+ hp)
4. Must be somewhat alcohol compatible (maybe not for this year, but who knows what the future holds)
5. Hopefully won't cost an arm or a leg.

Any opinions or experience?

What about Push-lok?
Steel hard lines (I haven't really found anything with enough OD yet?) Something else?

Where would YOU buy it?

http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027...ductId=1040684 OUCH OUCH OUCH OUCH

I had in mind to use 3/8 steel, I have a tough time flaring stainless without splitting it. Is there any reason why you couldn't run aluminum? I question it with alcohol though. I've seen gasahol pull water until the alcohol and water mix wouldn't mix with the gas and then it gets corrosive as hell. I've seen it corrode aluminum badly, it would concern me to have it as fuel line. Maybe Todd can speak to that.


3/8" Aluminum Fuel Line

91011430-30
LENGTH: 30'

$18.99

This is from Speedway, I'd do 30 feet so hopefully it will be enough for both runs. Use it for the feed and return both for reasons BBR mentions.

Braided from Spectre was only rated at 50psi, I wouldn't be okay with that and EFI personally, but it was 90.00 for 25 feet.

[38P]

1/2" od steel line from the pump almost to the regulators.

Any suggestions on sourcing steel lines larger than 3/8" (which is what Jegs sells in the Allstar Brand). Big aluminum lines are common-place and reasonably cheap, but they're not any good for methanol (which might be a consideration when this heap becomes a local bracket car).

[Beagle]

3/8 will be a LOT of fuel line with a big pump like an A1000 that can toss both volume and pressure at it....

Barry Grant's Demon carbs are something else to consider if you really hate Holley. You don't need much more than a 750 on an iron headed 466, even with artificial respiration. If you are gonna boost a carb, have a look at CSU? Homemadeturbo.com has a good article on mods needed when pressurizing your carb also.

[38P]

http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027...ductId=1040684 OUCH OUCH OUCH OUCH

I had in mind to use 3/8 steel, I have a tough time flaring stainless without splitting it. Is there any reason why you couldn't run aluminum? I question it with alcohol though. I've seen gasahol pull water until the alcohol and water mix wouldn't mix with the gas and then it gets corrosive as hell. I've seen it corrode aluminum badly, it would concern me to have it as fuel line. Maybe Todd can speak to that.


3/8" Aluminum Fuel Line

91011430-30
LENGTH: 30'

$18.99

This is from Speedway, I'd do 30 feet so hopefully it will be enough for both runs. Use it for the feed and return both for reasons BBR mentions.

Braided from Spectre was only rated at 50psi, I wouldn't be okay with that and EFI personally, but it was 90.00 for 25 feet.

I don't have the figures in front of me, but I don't think 3/8s is big enough for a safe fuel volume.

[38P]

That makes sense, just wanted to be sure I'm running a 3/8th line to my surge tank that is roughly a quart, and a pair of 3/8th lines to the fuel rails with a fuel pump on each (or will be shortly anyways, it's plumbed up). But I am not making anywhere near 700HP. If the pumps are anywhere near what they are rated for and if my engine could actually consume that much fuel, it'd take around 4 minutes for my surge tank to run dry if my math is good.

A. Graham Bell is a big advocate of the surge tank method. But I'm worried about getting it through tech, underhood space and the complexity/current draw of using a "lift" and "pressure" pumps. Still, if it works for Randall, perhaps I ought to reconsider.

Did you build your own surge tank, or buy one? (sorry I don't have time to research that question)

[TheSilverBuick]

Built it myself and looks like a pipe bomb 4" tall 2" diameter iron pipe with end caps tapped with brass fittings. Discreetly bolted to the firewall.

**I used to have it mounted near the core support in the carbon canister brackets, and got a funny look from a tech inspector, but told him it was my HOO device for better fuel mileage, lol.

[BKBridges]

3/8" lines should support well over 600hp at the crank @ 50psi fuel pressure. I like an-8 for the engine compartment as it holds a bit more fuel and that volume can serve as a minor "damper" for pulsation control. -6 will work at the hp level, but I'd add pulsation dampers on the rails.
If you get seamless stainless tubing in 304l it forms pretty much like steel. www.mcmaster.com can hook you up with steel or stainless line.. a 6ft piece of 1/2" steel seamless tube is about 12.00 and change. but 1/2" is huge for what you are planning. A carburetor fuel system is sized much larger than efi due to the difference in pressure! (p1V1=P2V2) V2 is much smaller when P2 is much larger...keep the bend radius large and the lines away from heat. Im not a big fan of aluminum tubing due to corrosion, fracture, creep and "connectivity" but Ive used it as well. Get the anodized stuff if you must.