Drag Week '13 Fuel System Plumbing?

[Beagle]

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Stainl...-AN,31476.html 5.00 / foot for braided -8 , .44 ID

http://www.nhra.com/UserFiles/file/General_Regulations.pdf

discussion on fuel line requirements and there are some considerations for braided, specifically around the bellhousing.

All non-OEM fuel lines (including gauge and/or data

recorder lines) must be metallic, steel braided, or NHRA-accepted

“woven or woven-pushlock.”

From that I read that steel braided is accepted period and woven or woven-pushlock needs to be "accepted" although finding the list of "Acceptable" is turning into a helluva chore.

[CDMBill]

The accepted list for push-lok is an SFI item, not in the NHRA rules. But, all of that only applies to lines that are inside the trans tunnel or firewall area adjacent to the bell housing area. Run your lines under the car outboard of the tunnel and you are good to go. If alcohol is a future issue beyond what is already in 50 state pump gas then aluminum tubing is out IMHO. For weight and cost of fittings the next best is the stainless and I f was doing a car that may well evolve later do it once with .5" and be done with it. A return style regulator which you pretty much half to have with after market EFI and the matching pump will cost some money. A-1000's are fully rebuildable and mine have been really solid for DW's and lots of other miles since 2004. I sued a pump controller originally, but for the last several years it was bypassed when I was chasing RFI issues and I've had no pump issues. I think it's a simpler solution then the surge tank set-up in terms of on road diagnosis and repair. People on DW have spare A-1000's and they are readily available along the way vs. more obscure pumps. The New Holley pumps look really good to me as well and use a similar technology. I don't know anyone who has run one yet through our little crucible of testing known as DW.

I used braided stainless under the car as much for its resistance to foriegn objects you run over in street driving. But its heavy, and my new N2O lines are stainless with some protective sleeves (old stainless braided #12) in critical exposed areas.

So this is to be a boosted EFI 460? I didn't catch that in the other thread in the Drag Week section. The carb in a box style can also be a good solution as it makes the carb itself a cheaper proposition and is good up to 10-12 PSI.

You complication mulitplier (CM) is getting way worse in terms of the likelyhood that you'll be ready for September. I would estimate boosted EFI as three times more complicated than N/A carb. N/A Carb motor = 1, Boosted EFI motor = 3, EFI is a 2, Carb and spray is a 1.5. Everyone's opinion may differ.

Money + time *CM = difficulty of being ready for DW. You do the math and make your choices. Good luck.

[TheSilverBuick]

Again, I don't make anywhere near 700HP, but I run two off the shelf Ford EFI pumps. Even the NAPA in Ely has them on the shelf. Plus if one fails a quick wire swap would put me back on the road (the second one is staged). The local NAPA guys are nice enough to sell them to me for ~$85 even.

In full disclosure, I did purchase an A1000, and will use it on my Firebird's turbo engine, which will likely be a surge tank as well plus 1/2" line from the tank to the A1000. All bets are off if I change out the gas tank, as I'd probably go with an aftermarket EFI sumped one.

[BBR]

Beagle, here's the list.

http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/NHRAAcceptedProducts.pdf

Looks like Summit and Jegs are ok now.

Aeroquip FC300 Black heavy hydraulic
Aeroquip FC332 Blue
Aeroquip FC598 Same as F332 but black
Aeroquip Star Lite 200
AQP Socketless
BMRS Polyester Braid
BMRS HTP Braid
Dayco Imperial Nelo-Seal Tubing
Earls Pro-Lite 350
Earls Super Stock
Earls Ultra Flex 650
Earls Diamond Lite
Fragola Performance System Series 8000 Push Lite
Fragola Performance System Pro Crimp I
Fragola Performance System Series 8600 Parker Push Lock
Gates LOL Plus
Goodridge 536
Goodridge 710
Goodridge 910
Russell (Parker) Pro Classic
Russell (Parker) Twist Lock
XRP XR-31
XRP HS-79
XRP Push On Blue or black
Jegs Pro Flow 350
Summit Racing Twist Tite
Precision Performance Flex Loc
Performance World PW 3000-Series Twist-Lok Hose Black 300PSI

Many of these are available at places other than speed shops. Example: The Austin Distributing warehouse behind my office stocks the Gates LOL Plus.


Outsider, at this point in the game, my suggestion would be to schmoozle up to Holley (or Edelbrock if you so choose) and skip the visions of efi grandeur unless you are a crack tuner or intend to pay Randal's airfare to have him tune it up for you. (haha) The MS learning curve is fairly steep and given all the other things you have alluded to that you need to do, it might be a bit much.

[anotheridiot]

we always used stainless with 37 degree flared fittings on the injected nitro. is that legal? We went solid because even thought the -8 is bigger ID, by the time you put the screw together fittings on the joints are smaller than .375

[TheSilverBuick]

*Warning* I am more than willing to help, but I am far from a great tuner. Technical problems are no problem, though it wouldn't be quite like loaning out a cressant wrench or screw driver *Warning*

[BBR]

Yeah sure. Last year I saw more than one guy running through the pits screaming your name with panic in the eyes!!

[TheSilverBuick]

Yeah sure. Last year I saw more than one guy running through the pits screaming your name with panic in the eyes!!

LMAO, did any of them win? =P Trust me, I didn't tune anything, just looked at technical problems, like what menu to do a global fuel change or bring up a datalog stored on the MS3's SD card (rather than on a laptop as in the past).

[squirrel]

Outsider, it would be to your benefit to go ahead and lay your cards on the table, tell us exactly what you are planning to do, then you won't be wasting your time and ours with suggestions that don't apply to your situation.

I don't know where you can get 1/2" steel fuel line nowadays....but what I did to get it was that I noticed that GM chassis motorhomes from the 1980s (454) use it from the tank to the pump, that's a long run...and I also noticed that it was listed in the GM Standard parts Catalog, and my friend who worked at a GM dealer ordered me a length of it.

[SpiderGearsMan]

the main question is
is it covered under the emissions warranty ?

[38P]

So this is to be a boosted EFI 460? I didn't catch that in the other thread in the Drag Week section.

I didn't advertise that aspect of it. And I've gone back and forth somewhat on the fuel mixer.

The carb in a box style can also be a good solution as it makes the carb itself a cheaper proposition and is good up to 10-12 PSI.

I've read everything I can get my hands on about that . . . Hugh MacInnes, Jeff Hartman, Mark Warner, Corky Bell, A. Graham Bell, old DF posts @Bangshift (who apparently is one of the biggest box advocates around), Yellow Bullet, the Turbo Forums . . . even the zany musings of Dick Datson and the Studebaker Drivers' Club. (Datson, btw, apparently thinks a PAIR of Q-Jets would work . . . based on what real-world experience, I don't know)

The problems created by boxes seem to outweigh the potential benefits . . . and the tuning is still going to be compromised . . . at a cost that's not all that much less than Megasquirt.

Perhaps I've arrived at the wrong conclusion, though. But I'm at the point where I've got to pick.

You complication mulitplier (CM) is getting way worse in terms of the likelyhood that you'll be ready for September. I would estimate boosted EFI as three times more complicated than N/A carb. N/A Carb motor = 1, Boosted EFI motor = 3, EFI is a 2, Carb and spray is a 1.5. Everyone's opinion may differ.

Money + time *CM = difficulty of being ready for DW. You do the math and make your choices. Good luck.

You're absolutely correct, of course. And my backup "Plan A" is to spray with a carb and hope for the best. (Spray doesn't really add much to the CM when you're talking plate kits)

"Plan B" is last year's "Untuned" Mustang with some suspension work to reign in the wheel hop and a functioning Zex kit. I take it nobody really wants to see "Plan B."

As for complexity, I can't pull the plug on what I really think is possible just yet. Too many 2 AM nights invested in it at this point. I'll start throwing complexity overboard, as necessary, about mid-August.

Thanks for the suggestions on plumbing. It's highly valuable to hear from those who have already pulled off something big.

[38P]

Outsider, it would be to your benefit to go ahead and lay your cards on the table, tell us exactly what you are planning to do, then you won't be wasting your time and ours with suggestions that don't apply to your situation.

I don't know where you can get 1/2" steel fuel line nowadays....but what I did to get it was that I noticed that GM chassis motorhomes from the 1980s (454) use it from the tank to the pump, that's a long run...and I also noticed that it was listed in the GM Standard parts Catalog, and my friend who worked at a GM dealer ordered me a length of it.

Fair points . . . I don't want to waste anyone's time. I just didn't want to talk everything up with the real prospect that it could all blow apart sometime in the next 115 days or so.

A lot of what I'm trying to pull off this summer dates way, way back . . . .

October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."

Read more: http://forums.carcraft.com/70/668919...#ixzz2TPKa4ZsB

Several aspects of that silly plan have changed over the past ten years . . . Not using the PSD 'cooler or the cast-off GTP-38R turbos. Making it harder by going with dog crap iron heads instead of much better aluminum. Going with some of the lo-po internals instead of the good reciprocating gear. . . A junk mock-up core . . . . much lower h.p. goals . . . .

But if that kid with the Maverick in Tommy Lee Bird's Street Sleepers book can pull something off . . . .

or Trevor Cornwell . . . .http://www.undrprsr.com/index.php?op...d=43&Itemid=42

or internet legend Mike Sitar (albeit with a 351W)

http://toohighpsi.laundrybasketquilt...T/BudgetTT.htm

I ought to be able to as well. If not, then I can always say I gave it the old college try (as long as the shrapnel or Mrs. Outsider don't kill me).

[Beagle]

holy crap, how big of a mill are you gonna make that you need a S475 on a "mild" engine ? Forget 60', it won't spool until the 1/8th mile!

[38P]

holy crap, how big of a mill are you gonna make that you need a S475 on a "mild" engine ? Forget 60', it won't spool until the 1/8th mile!

All of the examples I posted, except Sitar used turbos that weren't correctly sized. The S472 is too lazy for a stock-long-block 460 IMO. (too big for twins and too inefficient at lower pressure ratios)

You'll hit the limits of the parts at around 80 lbs/min.



Note that's not a plot for a pedestrian 460, but it does show how poorly matched the S475 is. But they are sort of cheap in diesel truck form.

What you probably want to see at this lbs/min. target is something more like this . . . .



That's a plot for half of a twin T61 . . . not the turbos that are the most available or affordable, but good for illustration purposes.

[Beagle]

that'd come out about 800 hp , might as well get the 1/2" braided line and A1000. I was surprised years ago at the cost of the pre and post pump fuel filters, the pump itself was not super surprising.

http://www.csucarbs.com/750.html

the one I got off fleabay was a china HX55 ripoff (too big, but cheap) that is supposed to flow 75lb/min. I'm not using all stock 460 parts, Ross forged pistons and Eagle h-beams. Still a low buck mill though, I'll have less than 1500.00 in the long block and the C6.