Fuel System Upgrades for Blow Thru carb with Turbo's

[Beagle]

Well lets see what the experts have to say............ This is the email response I got from Aeromotive.........



So what where you guys saying??

Read the parts where an engine is involved - running a pump in a lab unrestricted for 2000 hours is great, but read the rest of it. LIKE THE FIRST SENTENCE...

Gawd. I can't believe I replied. Nevermind.

[dieselgeek]

when I want confidence a product will work 1000% perfectly, I always double check with the marketing team. they always shoot straight, right?

[Beagle]

when I want confidence a product will work 1000% perfectly, I always double check with the marketing team. they always shoot straight, right?

I read the response twice, and the comments that have been argued are immediately conceded in the response.

I'll take the dyno math for 1,000,000.00 Alex. Read that response again... it adds heat. You recycle 1000 hp of fuel into a system needing 200 hp for normal usage, how much heat do we add? We know where the return is usually? On top of that fat ass Heat producing thing.. and sometime in early schooling, they taught us heat rises.

I'm not arguing any of it. The agreement on the math by the guys who made the pump is good enough for me. You don't return fuel to the tank after it's made it past the needle and seat or pintle. You return it to the atmosphere, hopefully BURNT.

[CDMBill]

Welcome back my friends to the thread that never ends....

Anyway, based on common sense, the EFI set up, with a large fuel volume circulating at low net consumption, running down the road for an extended time will be in effect a heat sink for the engine compartment warming the fuel mass. A stock metal tank hanging in the breeze gets some air cooling, a smaller fuel cell in the trunk is effectively insulated. So both heated and non-heated can be true. It's a systems impact.

[CDMBill]

To complete the thought, this is not a brand specific issue, it's a system issue. That's why we read about so many stock or stock based systems having trouble with typical aftermarket modifications such as four barrels carbs, high riser manifolds etc. Vapor lock, boiling fuel in the float bowls etc. is common in old school mild hop up situations.

Now we have a new set of circumstances with twin turbos on budget motors with blow through carbs or EFI and the cycle repeats. I think we went down a rat hole with the A-1000 as it has become a go-to piece for high power street driven cars. For Scott's deal it may well be overkill, but that is a systems, suitability for purpose question in my view, not a product quality issue.

I'm keeping mine and running a second one for the spray. Y'all may do something else, I'll not be offended.

[Scott Liggett]

I'm thinking I am going with either Aeromotive pump and boost referenced regulator, but I will have to redo the entire fuel system. I was thinking about Race Pumps mechanical. It would be much simpler setup and the price is about the same. The fuel system is going to double the price of the install of turbos. JOY!!!!

[Deaf Bob]

when I want confidence a product will work 1000% perfectly, I always double check with the marketing team. they always shoot straight, right?

If you want a slanted, biassed...I mean biased answer...then that is where you look...yes ....if I want to know how good something works... I ask those who use the product that do not have a stake or loyalty to it..


I am reading several "right way" to do this... Aparantly there is a good way, better way, and best way... The end result... What works for the person with the set-up...CDMBILL's system may work for him...maybe it will not for Scott L.

[Beagle]

.... I think we went down a rat hole with the A-1000 as it has become a go-to piece for high power street driven cars. For Scott's deal it may well be overkill, but that is a systems, suitability for purpose question in my view, not a product quality issue.

I'm keeping mine and running a second one for the spray. Y'all may do something else, I'll not be offended.

I wasn't dogging the Aeromotive part at all. It's actually a compliment that we selected it as the example of a way big pump when you think about it. As usual, can't believe I replied, and am ordering a breathalyzer for my keyboard. I think the part that sucked me into the rathole was the heat added when regulating a overkill fuel system conversation which I thought was interesting. What I heard was

"Way Big pump, circulating fuel on it's own, no appreciable heat added"
"Pressurized fluid shoved through a restriction adds heat to fluid"
"Dyno test measured appreciable fuel heat increase on regulated / fuel return system"

What might be an interesting outcome for me is to see how hot the fuel gets down here during the summer in a OEM configuration versus Way big pump in the same setup.

I was thinking about your air passing over the lines/tank comments with my 98 GT Mustang in mind. The last of the return line / regulated SN95's tanks are covered in plastic, no real circulation of air there, and the lines are pretty tucked up on the frame. I'd be willing to put a huge pump on it and test if some part mysteriously showed up.

I didn't see if the comment came up or not. What happens when you dead-head regulate one of these big mothers? Thanks guys for all of your input. I rather enjoyed learning some stuff from Scott's thread.

[JeffMcKC]

TC the earth is not Flat

















Waiting for TC to say it is he saw it written in some old Book he found.

[JeffMcKC]

If you need to slow down the water it is a cavitation issue. Cavitation does not only happen in pumps, it will happen in any area where pressures can change, take a look at the cooling passages of a cylinder block, if there is any air in it cavitation will be possible as there will be pressure changes as fluid moves throughout the passages in the block. Any type of heat exchanger works best with maximum flow & turbulence SHORT of cavitation, any cavitation and all rules fly out the window.

It is an old wives tale that water "needs time in the radiator" to cool down, this is simply not true. If you run the calculations and follow the rules of thermodynamics you will find out why (I have to do this crap every day as I sell industrial air coils (big radiators) and heat exchangers (which an engine block is).

Most cars will work better with some sort of restrictor as the pump is capable of making enough water flow that you have some cavitation in the block water passages. This is especially true with cars that have high flow aluminum rads as they are less of a flow restriction than older copper radiators (with smaller passage ways). (as a side note, copper material will always be more efficient than aluminum for heat transfer, however it is FAR less expensive to build an aluminum radiator and they have changed the techniques to make them better overall).

Now back to the fuel questions...... not going to add much except that the pump will always add temperature and the regulator will always add temperature due to friction (I deal with those on a regular basis as well). I have no idea how much temp it will add as it is generally insignificant in the stuff I deal with.

OK you beleive this guy ,,,, he is from Kanadia LOL I thought I said that same thing Hoser LOL


Glad to see you get it accross better than I did.


AND TC I have spoken to the guys who deal with the returned pumps that are "Bad Pumps" and sent back. Those are the guys to talk too not the guys selling the pumps.

[CDMBill]

On a related note, the most recent big power stuff from GM, Ford Chrysler and by this I meam ZR-1. Camaro ZL-1, Shelby GT500. SRT8 are all dead head units, usually with multiple pumps in a single drop in unit. The key is the pump controllers that are used to maintain pressure and volume. I talked to guy at a new company called Vaporworx which is building retrofit stainless tanks made by Rick's using the Cadillac CTS-V pump set-up which will support 1000 hp N/A, 700 supercharged. Very clean set-up and it allows long hrad drives, hard cornering etc even with the fule level very low in the tank. The proof was the car using it ia first gen Camaro known as the One Lap Camaro and those guys very successfully competed in that event, the One Lap of America, which is the godfather of drive and race events. race on a raod course (one drag strip) every day for a week driving an average of 1000 miles between tracks. Sound familiar?

Interestingly the factory drag cars, Cobra Jet Mustangs, Drag Pak Challengers and the not yet released COPO Camaro are using return style, small fuel cell set-ups, primarily from Aeromotive. These are strip only set-ups with no street use intended.

I think the aftermarket will begin to move in the direction of the current OEM practice although at the moment the upgraded late model systems from Holley, Aeromotive and others are return style.

see story and video at bottom of page. http://aeromotiveinc.com/2012/02/new...ealth-systems/

[Scott Liggett]

I was impressed with Aeromotive stuff until yesterday and the brand new pump that Yannick installed on a Fox Mustang didn't work. Oops.

[TC]

AND TC I have spoken to the guys who deal with the returned pumps that are "Bad Pumps" and sent back. Those are the guys to talk too not the guys selling the pumps.

I contacted their Tech Department, not their Sales Department.........

[JeffMcKC]

AND YOU THOUGHT THEY WOULD TELL YOU WHAT THEY HAVE SEEN GO WRONG? Its called lost sales, Duh.

TC, I know the guys that worked there.

[TC]

I think the aftermarket will begin to move in the direction of the current OEM practice although at the moment the upgraded late model systems from Holley, Aeromotive and others are return style.

see story and video at bottom of page. http://aeromotiveinc.com/2012/02/new...ealth-systems/

Dead head systems suck........ And the dead head systems the OEM's use today are not "true" dead head systems as they return the fuel at the pump or back by the tank........

Fuel Pressure Regulators and the Benefits of Return Style Systems

One of the biggest restrictions in most fuel systems is the "dead head' regulator. Dead head regulators are popular because you do not need to install a return line. However, they are not only more restrictive but also create several other problems that can be eliminated with a return style regulator.

Please note that you will find dead head style regulators on most all extremely high power race only applications such as NHRA Pro Stock cars. This is because they are 1) trying to save the most weight and keep it at the back of the vehicle; and 2) they are bypassing a huge output fuel pump right at the pump. They are still using a bypass system, just doing a different way. These engines consume so much fuel that regulator is just controlling idle, return road, and launch pressures. As soon as they stage and launch the vehicle they are only concerned that the regulator is not going to be restrictive. But, other than these extreme applications, a return regulator mounted near your engine is the best configuration.

Mallory offers both dead head and return style regulators. Both types are available in large and also small versions though you should never run the small regulators on pumps rated higher than 180 GPH. Dead head regulators regulate pressure by starting and stopping flow. Return regulators regulate pressure by sending excess fuel back to the tank in a continuous cycle.

Because a dead head regulator starts and stops flow, fuel pressure between the pump at regulator is higher than the pressure between the regulator and the carb (or injectors). However, if the pressure gets too high, it can and will damage or shorten the life of the fuel pump. Therefore, the pressure coming out of the pump is limited by a device built into the pump called a bypass. On applications using a return style regulator you want the pump to run without the operation of bypass in the pump. Therefore you need to make sure that the pump you plan on using is compatible with a return style regulator. For example, the Mallory 110 GPH pump (part #4110) will not work with return style systems, but the Mallory 140 GPH pump (part #4150) will go both ways. Included with the pump is a bypass plug which you install in the pump to replace the bypass spring, allowing the pump to run wide open for use with return style regulators.

Not only can the fuel pumps being used with dead head regulators fail because of pressure issues, but pumps with dead head regulators also run hotter and do not last as long as when connected to to a return-style system because it is the fuel that cools the pump. Pounding the fuel because it can not move creates more heat. Electric fuel pumps will also run quieter on a return style system.

At idle, gauge #1 will read 10 PSI where gauge #2 will read 8 PSI. At full throttle, the increase in fuel flow will create a pressure drop between the pump and the regulator. The amount of pressure drop depends on the restriction in the fuel line ... a 4 PSI drop is not uncommon. Gauge #1 will now read 6 PSI and because a dead head regulator cannot raise the pressure, gauge #2 will also now read at 6 PSI. The result is a 2 PSI pressure drop at the carb or nitrous even though a very large pump may be in use.

You can read more here.....

http://www.centuryperformance.com/mallory-fuel-pressure-regulators-selection-spg-81.html

So Jeff how many of those pumps they get returned are run on Dead Head Systems??