Fuel System Upgrades for Blow Thru carb with Turbo's

[JeffMcKC]

OK you big brain guys that dont understand Shearing fluids causes heat, why does the frans over heat with a large stall............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................Its shearing fluid off.

The pressure going threw the bypass makes heat. Friction. Once again I am past this topic, you cant talk to people that have not really done it, they dont have any real life stuff to add. Scott does not have to own anything to understand he is involved with a lot of these and mine along the way we talk a couple times a week discussing things just like this. TC you guy pound him all you want, John Force could not make his car start up without help. Without Scotts help a lot of guys would be up a creek. Guys like you that do this for ego are always behind the curve.

TC do what you want, I really dont care as it will have no effect on me, its plain to see you dont need any help.. Just like the Super Buick Dude your more about the drama.

Scott feel free to PM me, it needs to be matched to the fuel used, to get the most out of it, I would look into a submerged pump set up, 700 hp is not going to take a lot, but you will get boost fever fast once you taste it so plan for that.

[TheSilverBuick]

Simply ignoring the temperature increase based on pressure increase, look at the fuel system like you would a cooling system. The most efficient way to cool an engine is to move the coolant as fast as possible, short of cavitation, though the system. That's how the most BTU's are moved. Fuel can do the same. The more fuel you are bypassing, the more engine bay or engine heat you are pulling back to the fuel tank. The fuel tank doesn't have nifty fins on it like a radiator so it becomes a decent heat sink. When fuel levels get low, heat is going to build up even quicker because there is less volume to distribute it through.

Pressuring a liquid to 60psi isn't going to increase the temps a heck of a lot, couple degrees tops, but certainly not tens of degrees, and to 8 psi or less even less so. High amp pumps will likely saturate the fuel with heat more than the pressure, but circulating fuel is the quickest means of heating it (or conversely quickest means of cooling the fuel rails).

I refer to my first post in this thread. Find out what Squirrel does, match that plus a boost reference.

[SuperBuickGuy]

[QUOTE=TheSilverBuick;627300] The most efficient way to cool an engine is to move the coolant as fast as possible, short of cavitation, though the system.
QUOTE]

that's not true. an example, I've run several jet boats, and all of them needed restrictors in the cooling system to slow the water down - otherwise the would overheat.

Jeff - shear? you're saying that a small torque coverter creates more heat than the increased slippage of the clutches? Last I checked the heat came from the clutches not getting as much pressure at lower rpms thus increasing the friction.

As for the regulator - any documentation to back up that opinion - seriously, I've never heard that before so I'm curious where that idea came from.

As for heat in the fuel system - how would you ever take out from the equation the heat from the electric pump running in the tank (or even outside) and the heat from the exhaust system soaking into the fuel lines as they run forward in the car? I agree that the A1000 fuel pump might be overkill, but turn up the boost and your wallet will thank you since that pump will cover any increase. As for running a controller, do the math and find the "right" voltage to run the pump at - without doing the math, I'd guess 10v would be sufficient. The benefit of simply lowering the voltage to the tank (via a resistor) is it reduces the flow rate, reduces the amount of heat put into the fuel, and makes the pump last longer. Even without the controller, 40% more fuel than BSFC requires isn't overkill and the heat could be easily removed with an inline cooler.

[Barry Donovan]

if heat is concern at fuel pump..it is not a wrong fuel pump?

3psi and high volume goes for 50 years or until it falls off the car looking like it went down with the titanic in decay.
I love return systems..even on tiny slow movers.

the big engines, sudden bursts and slow downs..that is frightening thought to not have a bypass.
common sense.

for full return never off, is also yet another error..the return is for bursts of relief, then closes.
and surge tanks do catch chains..if that is exceeded bya chain. it is goodbye no matter what you got setup.

[JeffMcKC]

[QUOTE=SuperBuickGuy;627324]

The most efficient way to cool an engine is to move the coolant as fast as possible, short of cavitation, though the system.
QUOTE]

Jeff - shear? you're saying that a small torque coverter creates more heat than the increased slippage of the clutches? Last I checked the heat came from the clutches not getting as much pressure at lower rpms thus increasing the friction.

What Clutch slips in your Trans, none.

The converter turns a pump, the pump makes the pressure. You will find it takes very little pressure to lock the clutch down unless it has a leak or very heavy springs.

What slips is the converter ( slip is a bad term to use, Less efficient would be better) you can make any converter stall whatever you want, it’s all about keeping it under control and making it "Lockup" to keep temps down and be efficient. "Driving in the Stall” means your shearing fluid off and building heat in the fluid, the Trans itself does not build heat unless it has a problem.

[jcharliem]

Julie Brown must have been thinking of TC when she came out with her debut single in 1984... "I Like 'em Big and Stupid."

[JeffMcKC]

[QUOTE=SuperBuickGuy;627324]

The most efficient way to cool an engine is to move the coolant as fast as possible, short of cavitation, though the system.
QUOTE]

that's not true. an example, I've run several jet boats, and all of them needed restrictors in the cooling system to slow the water down - otherwise the would overheat.

.

I think your not understanding the issue you had, your issue was by installing the restrictor you pressurised the cooling system in the block not that the coolant was going to fast, what you had is a common problem without restricting the outlet the block will get hot spots and cavitate inside the block this is why I run a 24 lbs rad cap. It comes back to finding the root cause of the issue.

[JeffMcKC]

I prefer to keep fuel systems as simple as I can, with less to go wrong,,,, there is still plenty that can. I am not sure the guys with the controllers that failed did not have dirty filters making the amps on the pump go up and kill the controllers from the heat. I do not know if they found "The root cause of the issue" the result was a bad controller we bypassed on the road.

It’s not all about the energy needed to build the 700 hp static, once you launch a car, then you have to try to overcome the fuel from the tank wanting to go the other way (every action there is Blah Blah). Racing on Paper is not going down a track, plenty of guys don’t understand what they think they do, and should be more open to the other side.
I said before you guys want to put digs on Geek, but you should be listening to him to get the benefit of what he is involved in and who its with. When people like Ray Barton can be learning from him and keep having him back that should be a clue to the Internet Heroes trying just to invent drama and prove him wrong. You’re not going to learn a thing by arguing take it in and digest it before you post its not right if as much time was spent on this site listening rather than Ego’s trying to prove a guy who is doing it wrong we would all benefit from it.
I will be the first to say I learn all the time, I like to think things evolve and get better, sometimes I will try and fail, I tend to keep quiet about those, but what was right and best last month, will not be this month as things evolve in the Horse Power game.

[JeffMcKC]

if heat is concern at fuel pump..it is not a wrong fuel pump?

3psi and high volume goes for 50 years or until it falls off the car looking like it went down with the titanic in decay.
I love return systems..even on tiny slow movers.

the big engines, sudden bursts and slow downs..that is frightening thought to not have a bypass.
common sense.

for full return never off, is also yet another error..the return is for bursts of relief, then closes.
and surge tanks do catch chains..if that is exceeded bya chain. it is goodbye no matter what you got setup.

In a perfect world maybe, but lets say we are talking about cars that are asked on the same pump to make 50 HP aound town to idle and go 30 MPH and then at the track to make 1000 HP you have to pick a balance better balance to the side of 1000 HP and see what it takes to make that pump live, I say Clean filters and plenty of fuel to cycle.

[TC]

I said before you guys want to put digs on Geek, but you should be listening to him to get the benefit of what he is involved in

Jeff when he writes things like this, is when I start questioning what he really knows.......

Don't get an A1000 if you're going to run only 8psi - you'll just overheart the fuel, wear out the pump prematurely, etc.

a regulator no matter where its mounted creates heat in the fuel passing through it. Also, all pumps heat the fuel as well.

And the thing is Jeff you know it's all BullShit to........

Like I said show me proof the heat produced by the regulator and pump cause ill effects......

[JeffMcKC]

Jeff when he writes things like this, is when I start questioning what he really knows.......





And the thing is Jeff you know it's all BullShit to........

Like I said show me proof the heat produced by the regulator and pump cause ill effects......

He is right TC, when I ran a Dom and my A1000 it over heated the fuel because of the bypass and low tank levels of fuel to spred the heat in. It makes for a lot of bypassing of the regulator from the volume moved and will make the pump cavitate.

I too think for 700 HP its a lot of Pump. IT will work, I got mine from Doc when he took it off his car to upgrade.

A little reading for you maybe you should call Aeromotive, (Jeff Stacy a freind of mine) that worked there warned me of over heating the fuel it was the number one cause of issues with their pumps. The overheating can be cause because on many things Filters and not enough fuel in the tank where the two biggest problems.

http://aeromotiveinc.com/2010/01/fuel-tanks-and-cells/

http://aeromotiveinc.com/2010/01/dynamic-vs-static-fuel-systems/

[TC]

He is right TC, when I ran a Dom and my A1000 it over heated the fuel because of the bypass and low tank levels

You keep referring to "low tank levels" and the fuel getting to hot, so I'm guessing it's not as big of a problem with a full tank??........

Also at the drag strip it's not going to be that much of a problem since your car will have time to cool off between runs and I'm sure the fuel won't get heated enough to made a difference in the short time it's running while making a pass........

And as many have said, if it becomes a problem, just install and inline fuel cooler..........Problem solved..........

Also anyone with an electric fuel pump and return style fuel system can go do this experiment....... Just go out to the car and turn on the pump so it is circulating the fuel, but don't turn on the engine, just let the fuel pump run, do this for 15 minutes and then take a temp reading of the fuel and compare it to the temp reading of the fuel at the beginning of the test........I'll bet $50 that the temp of the fuel doesn't raise more than a couple of degrees, if that...............

[SuperBuickGuy]

He is right TC, when I ran a Dom and my A1000 it over heated the fuel because of the bypass and low tank levels of fuel to spred the heat in. It makes for a lot of bypassing of the regulator from the volume moved and will make the pump cavitate.

I too think for 700 HP its a lot of Pump. IT will work, I got mine from Doc when he took it off his car to upgrade.

A little reading for you maybe you should call Aeromotive, (Jeff Stacy a freind of mine) that worked there warned me of over heating the fuel it was the number one cause of issues with their pumps. The overheating can be cause because on many things Filters and not enough fuel in the tank where the two biggest problems.

http://aeromotiveinc.com/2010/01/fuel-tanks-and-cells/

http://aeromotiveinc.com/2010/01/dyn...-fuel-systems/

so remind me - how did the fuel regulator cause heat in your system?

no clutches in an automatic transmission? wow, I'll be sure to leave the frictions out next time I rebuild one - after all, if Jeff says they don't exist, they must not

lol

[Scott Liggett]

Maybe I should be more specific. I'll be running a carbed small block pushing a max of 700 hp at the crank. Maybe 550 at the wheels. I will be the engine fairly mild and using the turbos to make up the difference. In the future , I may go to efi, but not until I rewire the car. The wiring is is original and a mess. Its not capable of handling the extra load of efi and its components right now.

This is going to be handling car, not a max hp straight line drag car. 1000 hp is just stupid because you can never get the power to the pavement.

[CDMBill]

Pressuring a liquid to 60psi isn't going to increase the temps a heck of a lot, couple degrees tops, but certainly not tens of degrees, and to 8 psi or less even less so. High amp pumps will likely saturate the fuel with heat more than the pressure, but circulating fuel is the quickest means of heating it (or conversely quickest means of cooling the fuel rails).

I refer to my first post in this thread. Find out what Squirrel does, match that plus a boost reference.

One thought on this, and I am impressed with Jim's 55 just like everyone else, is that under hood temps on turbo cars, especially twin turbos are much higher than roots blown cars absent significant engine comparment airflow modifications. Given all the foregoing discussion I'd be looking at not just the pumps designed capacity, but the entire systems approach with blow through carbed, pump gas powered set-ups, and I'd start with guys(gals too) who have real world street driven experience with this kind of setup. DG has worked with more of those folks than most.

I have a good buddy, a former Garrett turbo engineer who built his own twin turbo BBC 55 Chevy pretty much from scratch. It is EFI not carbed, but heat managment was the issue as some of you who were on the CC Anti Tour last year know.