Leaded fuel and wide band sensors

[seanm]

What effect or damage does leaded race fuel have on wide band sensors? Was at the wheel dyno yesterday and the dyno owner asked if the car had leaded gas and said it would damage the wide band sensor very quickly. I know the sensors are not designed to work with leaded fuel, but he acted like it would ruin it in a few dyno pulls. Does it cause damage that fast?

Thanks

[Stich496]

yes

[TheSilverBuick]

Agreed. Or at least effect readings. Lead coats stuff, and will coat the sensor.

[seanm]

Is there anyway to clean the sensor? How do you tell if the lead is starting to affect the sensor?

[Darren N.]

What about when big HP gasoline motors are dyno tuned? Leaded gas is often used. Although they may not run the wideband O2 for long, what happens to the sensors in these cases?

[Stich496]

What about when big HP gasoline motors are dyno tuned? Leaded gas is often used. Although they may not run the wideband O2 for long, what happens to the sensors in these cases?

you buy the replacement(s) as part of the cost of the dyno time.. don't worry they'll add it to your bill

[Darren N.]

you buy the replacement(s) as part of the cost of the dyno time.. don't worry they'll add it to your bill

lol, yeah. But I think the question here is how long before the wideband's readings become noticeably skewed. The OP, Sean, brought up a good point. Surely a few pulls wouldn't kill the wideband, maybe there's even a way to (chemically?) clean the TEL off the sensor after?

[dieselgeek]

I've used both the NTK and the Bosch LSU sensors with leaded fuel and found no problems at all. I know plenty of dynos that run them with leaded all the time.

Here's what I've learned about them: if your tune is real rough when you start using the sensors, they'll die quick from unburnt fuel getting on them. I've seen a few get killed that way quickly. But, if you avoid installing the sensors until you have the tune close, or if you're working with a tune that's already pretty good - the sensors can last a LONG time.

Does anyone remember the blue Parish Silverado pickup truck? Jim ran the same O2 sensor (FJO wideband system) the entire time he owned it, and ran hundreds of gallons of race gas on it. It never misbehaved, I know many people that race with them and have no problems so, I'd say the answer is, your dyno guy is being overly paranoid.

[seanm]

Thanks fellas,

Wanted to know because I use the same sensor in many different cars. Most are unleaded, but also use it in a few that run race fuel. Have killed a few from the tune being way off, didn't know how quickly lead would cause problems. I can understand the dyno operator being protective of his sensors, I'm sure they cost a lot.

How would you tell if a sensor is reading incorrectly other than checking the plugs? Would the free air calibration indicate anything wrong?

Should be a way to clean it?

[Stich496]

I've used both the NTK and the Bosch LSU sensors with leaded fuel and found no problems at all. I know plenty of dynos that run them with leaded all the time.

Here's what I've learned about them: if your tune is real rough when you start using the sensors, they'll die quick from unburnt fuel getting on them. I've seen a few get killed that way quickly. But, if you avoid installing the sensors until you have the tune close, or if you're working with a tune that's already pretty good - the sensors can last a LONG time.

Does anyone remember the blue Parish Silverado pickup truck? Jim ran the same O2 sensor (FJO wideband system) the entire time he owned it, and ran hundreds of gallons of race gas on it. It never misbehaved, I know many people that race with them and have no problems so, I'd say the answer is, your dyno guy is being overly paranoid.

wow, as seen as the lead doesn't BURN ,lean,rich who cares the lead still passes through. same amount.. per gallon.. no matter what your a/f% is

[TheSilverBuick]

As much as I'd kinda like to agree with Mark, I have to go with the real world data.

[dieselgeek]

wow, as seen as the lead doesn't BURN ,lean,rich who cares the lead still passes through. same amount.. per gallon.. no matter what your a/f% is

Even more wow is someone telling us who hasn't ever once used a wideband oxygen sensor. Please just go away.

[dieselgeek]

Thanks fellas,

Wanted to know because I use the same sensor in many different cars. Most are unleaded, but also use it in a few that run race fuel. Have killed a few from the tune being way off, didn't know how quickly lead would cause problems. I can understand the dyno operator being protective of his sensors, I'm sure they cost a lot.

How would you tell if a sensor is reading incorrectly other than checking the plugs? Would the free air calibration indicate anything wrong?

Should be a way to clean it?

If the sensor is unable to calibrate in free air, then you have issues. They don't usually become "just a little off" they usually stop working altogether. It's easy to tell.

I get Bosch sensors for around $45 apiece, FYI. NTKs are more expensive though.

[Stich496]

As much as I'd kinda like to agree with Mark, I have to go with the real world data.

real world data.. every exhaust seat that has ever seen leaded fuel.. the port of the exhaust..
if it was because of a rich tune(per d/g) no parts past the cyl would be coated..
d/g's talking sideways again


I know d/g's gonna say every engine from day one till efi was pig rich.. here it comes..

fyi not all race fuel has lead.. and the car d/g listed more than likely ran unleaded

[dieselgeek]

real world data.. every exhaust seat that has ever seen leaded fuel.. the port of the exhaust..
it it was because of a rich tune(per d/g) no parts past the cyl would be coated..
d/g's talking sideways again


I know d/g's gonna say every engine from day one till efi was pig rich.. here it comes..

How is lead coating relevant to this discussion? unleaded fuels coat the inside of an exhaust with black soot - so what?

The bottom line is, O2 sensor manufacturers tell you what life to expect out of a sensor, and I'm here telling you that I've done it *hundreds* of times - I find it entertaining that Mark is SO SURE IT'S GOING TO KILL A SENSOR RIGHT AWAY but the guy hasn't ever even seen what a wideband sensor looks like? Lemme guess, his uncle designs wideband O2 sensors :rolleyes: