It's Been a Long Time Coming.......

[Bob Holmes]

Having been born in Pomona California in 1960, and experiencing the fact that my younger brothers didn't know there was a mountain range there, and then driving in the same area and experiencing the significantly cleaner air, I'm not one to bitch about the EPA and CARBS efforts to clean the air. It was necessary and has produced tangible results.

That doesn't mean that I think that the rules that are currently in place are reasonable or fair when it comes to our favorite pastime. Today's rules are arcane at best and unfathomable at worst. Why I can't run what I want if it meets todays standards is, frankly, absurd. And we automotive hobbyists are an easy target for the latest politically correct green-weenie that wants to get elected. Not that we don't make ourselves easy targets with the improperly tuned, unmuffled, eye watering crap that passes for what we like to think is our automotive "right." We need to clean up our own house before someone else just flat legislates our pastime right out of existence.

Mark, I think the rules should apply to everyone uniformly. One of the great injustices in California has been that the San Francisco Bay area was not required to have bi-annual inspections but the Sacramento Valley was required to have the inspections. Guess what, the ocean breeze blew all the crappy air from the Bay Area into the valley where it would sit against the foothills. The worst smog was in Auburn and Placerville.

Folks, tune your cars up, put a Cat on the car (yep you can do it without losing performance, do some research) and join SEMA's action network.

And make certain to read the final adopted version of the bill, what's introduced is almost never what gets signed into law. I used to work in the California legislature and could tell you plenty of stories as to what actually happens.

[KeithTurk]

I'll agree with you to an extent Bob... having choked in LA in my youth and seeing how really good it is.... well lets just say it's BETTER...

But to Give Cars the credit would be a radical mistake.... the California legislature has regulated Manufactuering out of the LA basin as well as the rest of California and the tax structure has insured it stays out....

One of the things I like best about America is that it's a collection of "United" states.... and each state can have it's own style or standard with limited federal interference. Not being political but simply stating.... if you don't like the Pinko's in the state you currently reside it... there's always Packing your Samsonite and getting the hell out of there.....

( Don't come to Alabama... less you like Wind )

[Bob Holmes]

I absolutely agree with you Keith.

(Thanks for the tip, I hate wind)

[BBR]

I read the other day that Amarillo has some of the cleanest air in Texas... that's probably because it's like walking into a wind tunnel every time you step outside.

[DanStokes]

Stitch - Wrongo, dude. The STATES, not the EPA, determine the testing required within their borders. EPA will draw up a suggested remediation plan for any state or area out of compliance but they DO NOT require that the Ageny's remediation plan be implemented - only that the RESULTS are obtained. In other words, "We don't care how you do it but here's a way that would probably work - and you have to do something". Most states choose to implement the EPA plan because it's easy (they don't have to do any science to devise a different plan) and they know it'll be accepted. And, generally, the EPA plans have proven to get the job done.

Keith makes a good point - there is a LOT of autonomy retained by the states and I'm OK with that. This includes HOW to obtain environmental compliance. It's just as frustrating for the Agency that in some states some regions have enforcement and some don't but the Agency (and therefore, the Federal Gov) simply don't have that authority.

It's a common myth that Federal highway funds can be held captive to the implementation of EPA improvement plans. Not true. What can happen is that the highway funds can be held if the areas in question do not attain environmental compliance. NOT the same thing. Again, we don't care HOW you do it but you have to (dare I say it?) "Git 'er done".

Dan

[squirrel]

A few tidbits:

1. There's a thing called "attainment areas" and "non-attainment areas". If the air is already within EPAs standards for certain pollutants, then it's an attainment area, and the state does not need to do anything (such as testing, or whatever) in that area. That explains why so many places do not have a testing program.

2. I'd be really surprised if there were any scientific data showing that having a smog testing program in place in a non-attainment area measurably reduces smog in that area. Testing does not reduce emissions. It does make money for the folks doing the testing.

3. Big emissions reductions occured after testing started in the mid 70s. There's a simple explanation for this that does not include testing: Catalytic converters. They reduce CO and HC emissions by somewhere around 90%. As newer cars took over the population, emissions decreased dramatically. Don't give testing the credit, give the Clean Air Act of 1970 the credit (also the 1977 version that eventually led to closed loop EFI on all cars).

[KeithTurk]

and the massive reduction in Manufacturing in America.... as well as Nuclear power.... Just saying... Car's are just a Bit of it...

[squirrel]

That depends where you are, for sure that's the case in the northern industrial states. Not so much down here, we never had a lot of manufacturing, but we did get the pollution. Having mountains that hold in the smog is a big part of it....Kansas City doesn't have a problem, Phoenix does.

[KeithTurk]

Dude... that's just Mexican's farting.... Get real....

[milner351]

In '96 when the ULEVs first started coming out - the "pollutants" from the exhaust of a ULEV were lower than the ambient pollutants in the air in LA county most days.

The auto industry has made huge progress in this area and we're rapidly approaching (if not already past) the cliff of diminishing returns.

Methane from livestock poop is a sizeable volume of "pollutants" - don't see any regulation of that!

[STINEY]

Shhhhh...... quiet John, they have been eyeing that for a few years now.

Seriously, they want farmers to do something, they just haven't figured out what yet, aside from just fining them. Fighting back on that legislation has worked so far......

[Stich496]

Stitch - Wrongo, dude. The STATES, not the EPA, determine the testing required within their borders. EPA will draw up a suggested remediation plan for any state or area out of compliance but they DO NOT require that the Ageny's remediation plan be implemented - only that the RESULTS are obtained. In other words, "We don't care how you do it but here's a way that would probably work - and you have to do something". Most states choose to implement the EPA plan because it's easy (they don't have to do any science to devise a different plan) and they know it'll be accepted. And, generally, the EPA plans have proven to get the job done.

Keith makes a good point - there is a LOT of autonomy retained by the states and I'm OK with that. This includes HOW to obtain environmental compliance. It's just as frustrating for the Agency that in some states some regions have enforcement and some don't but the Agency (and therefore, the Federal Gov) simply don't have that authority.

It's a common myth that Federal highway funds can be held captive to the implementation of EPA improvement plans. Not true. What can happen is that the highway funds can be held if the areas in question do not attain environmental compliance. NOT the same thing. Again, we don't care HOW you do it but you have to (dare I say it?) "Git 'er done".

Dan

DAN YOU BETTER CHECK THAT, if the states don't do as the fed says (epa/etc) they will loose fed road grants.
yes the state can say no, and loose the road grants, none will..
think you might want to look into THIS FACT..
in the biz world that be blackmail, but not when it's the feds..
carry on..

[DanStokes]

You can believe what you want - it's that kind of country. I told you the truth and I worked there for 31 1/2 years. This is my field and I know this stuff. Most people want to think that the Federal Gov is "all powerful" and lives to throw it's weight around. While I can't speak to other areas of the Gov I DO know what EPA can and can't do - and they can't do plenty. Including holding up highway funds if specific plans are not put in place. They can (and do) hold up highway funds if certain air quality standards are not met - by whatever means the State chooses.

Believe it or not
Dan

[Brian Lohnes]

One of the most major areas of examination right now is nitrous oxide. While the current concentration is on fertilizer, because when fert breaks down, it releases lots of the stuff into the atmosphere. They've not brought the automotive end of it into play yet (and they may not because it is a minute fraction of a minute fraction of the issue. Working for a fertilizer company, we've been hearing lots about this topic.