States may gain power over emission standards?

[dieselgeek]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

We really need to go in the opposite direction - we need to get away from the "green state" regulations to ONE set of regs for all of the US, even better if we could get the Europeans to agree to the same emissions and crash standards - then we could sell the same stuff on both sides of the big pond - now THAT would be efficient!

I agree, this needs to be a Federal thing. But the bigger problem, and Obama and Schwarzenegger know this, is that our Federal and CA emissions are run by Big Oil. Not by people who understand emissions laws. Take a look at Europe, where the carmakers and oil companies have no say in the rules. One set of rules, and lo and behold - both their diesel AND their gas fleets get FAR better economy while still being "safe/heavy"

So before we bash the gov't, realize that they're up against Big Oil industry who funds much of the campaign funds on both sides of the fence.

[squirrel]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

Have you been to Europe? have you seen the tiny cars they drive over there?

There have been several attempts to increase CAFE standards, which would have made the current push by these 14 states unnecessary. Not surprising.

[dieselgeek]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

Have you been to Europe? have you seen the tiny cars they drive over there?

There have been several attempts to increase CAFE standards, which would have made the current push by these 14 states unnecessary. Not surprising.

Yep, been to Europe. Actually BEEN there - have you? all the cars I am talking about, have comparably sized counterparts in the USA> And that includes large pickups. A Cummins diesel there, in a truck like mine, gets mid 20s mpg. Here? mid teens.

[SuperBuickGuy]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

Hmm... it just occurred to me that there could be a easy solution. With every Corvette comes a battery powered golf cart - thus the CAFE average is met (the EPA imputes 100 mpg for electric vehicles)... Every Viper comes with two golf carts.... I'm going into the golf-cart business ;D

[TC]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

Have you been to Europe? have you seen the tiny cars they drive over there?

There have been several attempts to increase CAFE standards, which would have made the current push by these 14 states unnecessary. Not surprising.

Yep, been to Europe. Actually BEEN there - have you? all the cars I am talking about, have comparably sized counterparts in the USA> And that includes large pickups. A Cummins diesel there, in a truck like mine, gets mid 20s mpg. Here? mid teens.

I've been to Europe twice, and saw all sizes of cars. And lets face it the reason they get better fuel economy is because they don't put out as much power, plus more of their cars run on diesel. We American's are power junkies, we like to step on the gas and have our heads thrown back and sink into the seat. And that is why our cars get crappy gas mileage in comparison.

But what I don't think people are seeing in all this, is to force our car companies to make more fuel efficient cars will only boost our economy by offering an American made alternative to the Eco-Import shitboxes. Face it Toyota and Honda make little fuel efficient cars, and that is what our car manufacturers need to start doing. They need to start getting a piece of that pie.

I would also like to see more smaller diesel motors put into cars. I mean how about a 5.0L Duramax with 200 hp and 450ft/lbs of torque, put in a Tahoe and get 30mpg. I've said this before that is one of my biggest complaints is that GM doesn't offer a Diesel Suburban or Tahoe. Even with the current Duramax they could get 25+mpg out of them.

And did any of you guys catch that guy that ran DragWeek with a Mustang that had a Duramax in it, said something about him getting 30+mpg. And you know that car was fast if he was doing DragWeek.

[squirrel]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

So, what's different? and are you sure about your facts?

they sure can't seem to make the cars they export get as good of mileage as the ones from Asia or the US. Scroll down to the bottom of the list.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp

btw, I expect the fleet mileage is much better because so many people drive those tiny little cars that won't even meet our crash standards. You know the ones I'm talking about.

[dieselgeek]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

So, what's different? and are you sure about your facts?

they sure can't seem to make the cars they export get as good of mileage as the ones from Asia or the US. Scroll down to the bottom of the list.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp

btw, I expect the fleet mileage is much better because so many people drive those tiny little cars that won't even meet our crash standards. You know the ones I'm talking about.

gimme a break, there are articles all over the media about EPA/CARB "environmental regulations" versus those of Europe and every other nation...

And guess what TC, I'm actually "smart enough" to not be comparing diesel to gasoline... take a look at comparable diesels that are sold here versus overseas. And compare the actual fuel economy. For a while I ran a "Euro Flash" on my 98 Cummins truck. Not only did it pick up 20whp (dyno verified) but it got unholy improvements in economy... mid 20s mpg for the brief time I had that tune on it, until the Dodge dealer did a mandatory reflash while they were busy screwing Mopar over for unauthorized warranty work.

[Brian Lohnes]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

Face it Toyota and Honda make little fuel efficient cars, and that is what our car manufacturers need to start doing. They need to start getting a piece of that pie.

That pie was on the table in the early 1970's. Honda, Toyota, VW, and Nissan (Datsun) all ate REALLY well.
Our guys said, "We don't like that kid of pie."

Hence lost generations of buyers...

Brian

[TC]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

You know if they really wanted to gain some mileage they would get rid of Catalytic Converters. With the introduction of the rear O2 sensor, they are able to monitor how hot the catalytic converter is getting. And when it gets to hot it signals the computer to richen up the fuel mixture to cool the converter down, thus wasting fuel in the process. Plus the converter allow them to run the motors on a richer fuel mixture. Basically catalytic converters had their place back in the carb days, but now in the era of fuel injection they have out lived their usefulness and are actually costing us fuel economy.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

You know if they really wanted to gain some mileage they would get rid of Catalytic Converters. With the introduction of the rear O2 sensor, they are able to monitor how hot the catalytic converter is getting. And when it gets to hot it signals the computer to richen up the fuel mixture to cool the converter down, thus wasting fuel in the process. Plus the converter allow them to run the motors on a richer fuel mixture. Basically catalytic converters had their place back in the carb days, but now in the era of fuel injection they have out lived their usefulness and are actually costing us fuel economy.

*BUZZZZ* Wrong. Cat's are designed to remove NOx (NOx --> N2 & O2) and burn limited amounts of HC's and accelerate the 4CO + 2O2 --> 4CO2 reaction (platinum is the NOx catalyst). Far from unecessary, especially when NOx is what creates the brown haze known as smog. Very relevant today. Reason the catalytic converters need to cool down is because when they get too hot they stop breaking NOx down, since they formed from the high combustion temperatures they need lower temperatures to separate.

[SuperBuickGuy]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

I was all ready to wax eloquent about how big oil doesn't run the government; europe is a different market then the US - and far more nannyish; that to reduce exhaust temps you (paradoxically) add fuel thus decrease fuel mileage.... HOWEVER, I think I'll just have a strawberry julius and enjoy the on going spittin match.

Cheers
;)

[dieselgeek]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

I was all ready to wax eloquent about how big oil doesn't run the government; europe is a different market then the US - and far more nannyish; that to reduce exhaust temps you (paradoxically) add fuel thus decrease fuel mileage.... HOWEVER, I think I'll just have a strawberry julius and enjoy the on going spittin match.

Cheers
;)

as far as my understanding goes, Silver Buick is right. I've never seen any logic that "cools the cats down" in any of the software I've ever worked with...

all I know is that you tune the fuel and timing to "light off" the cat as quickly as possible in the cold, and that a cat is very sensitive to the mixture you feed it. More than a minute or two of rich AFR will completely kill a catalyst. I made that mistake once before :-\

[Brad54]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

There are already cars that get way better mileage than the fleet average...it's just that they're small, light, underpowered, and inexpensive. Oh...and unprofitable to make and sell.

This is another fact that clueless reporters haven't figured out.

frankly, it's another fact that a clueless President hasn't figured out either. He want's big increases by the 2011 model year. The story I just read says that gives the Big Three 18 months to get it done. I think most everyone here realizes the lead time in designing cars and making changes... it ain't 18 months.

-Brad

[dieselgeek]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

There are already cars that get way better mileage than the fleet average...it's just that they're small, light, underpowered, and inexpensive. Oh...and unprofitable to make and sell.

This is another fact that clueless reporters haven't figured out.

frankly, it's another fact that a clueless President hasn't figured out either. He want's big increases by the 2011 model year. The story I just read says that gives the Big Three 18 months to get it done. I think most everyone here realizes the lead time in designing cars and making changes... it ain't 18 months.

-Brad

Sorry, it's no different than it's been for years when it was driven by CARB. Everyone said the 2007 diesel emissions laws, which were a CRAZY change from the years prior, would kill the diesel industry. While it did convince Caterpillar to exit the roadgoing diesel business, it wasn't the end of the world.

And seriously. The new guy's been in office for a week. WHo are you comparing him to when you call him clueless? don't answer, it was a rhetorical question designed to get you to treat politics a little less like a football game, and more like reality.

[TC]

Re: States may gain power over emission standards?

You know if they really wanted to gain some mileage they would get rid of Catalytic Converters. With the introduction of the rear O2 sensor, they are able to monitor how hot the catalytic converter is getting. And when it gets to hot it signals the computer to richen up the fuel mixture to cool the converter down, thus wasting fuel in the process. Plus the converter allow them to run the motors on a richer fuel mixture. Basically catalytic converters had their place back in the carb days, but now in the era of fuel injection they have out lived their usefulness and are actually costing us fuel economy.

*BUZZZZ* Wrong. Cat's are designed to remove NOx (NOx --> N2 & O2) and burn limited amounts of HC's and accelerate the 4CO + 2O2 --> 4CO2 reaction (platinum is the NOx catalyst). Far from unecessary, especially when NOx is what creates the brown haze known as smog. Very relevant today. Reason the catalytic converters need to cool down is because when they get too hot they stop breaking NOx down, since they formed from the high combustion temperatures they need lower temperatures to separate.

Whatever it is, it is still costing us gas mileage.

And remember if you have 100% combustion you have no emissions.