Let's assume...bench racing a claimer motor.

[stangbanger]

The type of car and track really do make a difference to the discussion.

If I was going for maximum power and torque for cheap, I'd go with a monster 460 Ford-based combo. But the "highest average" and r.p.m. limit make me think this is really a veiled Engine Masters query. Big blocks, regardless of brand, have proven to have too many internal losses to win "highest average per cube."

If I were limited to budget factory iron and building a medium-cube mill (what seems to win "dyno races" most often) under such vague rules, the choice would come down to something with heavily-reworked Cleveland heads. Or I might go for a Mark VIII DOHC (seriously, there's some grunt that's beggin' to be released, the old heads when ported flow big, and getting the internal losses down would be easier . . . besides I know where a good cheap one is )

If there's really a claimer rule, then building something weird (i.e. Not Chevy) is probably less likely to be claimed.


UPDATE, now that I've read Dieselgeek's post and know this is really about EM, I would eliminate the 460. But I'm worried about an intake manifold rule killing the B-Head Mark VIII.

Good call on the DOHC 4.6 motor. I'd guess you could make great average power per cube with one for next to no money. I just seriously considered buying a mark VIII for $800 solid body bad air ride. Would have been an easy fix for suspension as tbird stuff bolts in. But I was not looking for a divorce........

[SuperBuickGuy]

Because the winner is the guy who makes the most average power and torque from 2500-6500rpm, *per cubic inch* - big blocks get their asses handed to them at this game.

Bob's talking about the proposed new class for Engine Masters Challenge - a $4000ish claimer class. A 6.0 LS (need the big bore to minimize shrouding) with a mishmash of OEM parts, the proper head porting, intake and exhaust design, and cam selection should kick ass in this contest.

I wish they'd require the carburetor and EFI system be a part of the $4000 claim however. But too many whiney carb guys who run their mega-buck, thousands-of-pulls-to-tune Shop Carburetors would cry about having to let their priceless gems go for $4000...

I'd gladly let my $180 megasquirt go with a claim. I also think EFI guys would have the inherent advantage here - EFI pretty much always out-torques and out-averages a carburetor.

I am certain you don't mean to say that it's possible to tune a carb better than EFI.... but that's exactly what you're (not intending) saying.

I like that 4k idea because it promotes innovation, plus whether you spend thousands on tuning EFI or a carb - no one seems to remember that all those hours tuning costs far more than the parts.... the only real difference is if they claim your efi, they don't get your IP; if they claim a carb - they get the IP...


Hmmmm... I'm going to leave that last paragraph up because I've changed my mind in my typing - 4k claimer? only the mathmatically challenged would ever buying into something like. 4k is a rebuild worth of machine work, and parts. I can't imagine any builder who'd play that game because the development costs are so high. Even if you own a machine shop - you do all the development work, and someone can buy it from you for 4k? the advantage of EM now is they show the internals, but trying to copy their work (especially the flow related stuff) from pictures and what is written would be impossible. Thus, it becomes an advertising expense and a nice marketing bit for the shop "we'll build you this motor" or "we do awesome work, look." If it were a claimer class, I'd just go ahead and buy all the motors that were innovative, then sell the IP.... be a nice venture, not so good for the builders.

[milkovich]

I'd try an iron 408 with stock LS3 heads. Spend the money on the chinese crank/rods and decent pistons instead of exotic heads. My guess is the L92 truck intake would be the better intake. You'd barely squeak in under the wire at $4k.

[kyhunter89]

the stock 6.0 block with ls3 heads should outperform the 408 with ls3 heads in hp/ci, well is there a rpm limit? all my ideas need revved. L92 heads may be better at that point.

[38P]

the 403 has the same stroke as the other small block olds engines 3.385" but a massive more 4.351" it also uses smaller main barrings so it will not put more stress ont he barrings being reved that high. if the block in girdeled you could probably get it to 7,000+ easy

the pont 400 and 455 would be sweet too but i like olds more lol

A huge part of the budget on a Pontiac would be used to buy new rods, because the factory cast-iron rods wouldn't be up to 6,500 r.p.m. The big-bore 403 is an interesting idea. Heads might be a problem (Where's Joe Mondello (RIP) when you need him?)

[stangbanger]

the stock 6.0 block with ls3 heads should outperform the 408 with ls3 heads in hp/ci, well is there a rpm limit? all my ideas need revved. L92 heads may be better at that point.

6,500 rpm limit...............

[stangbanger]

A huge part of the budget on a Pontiac would be used to buy new rods, because the factory cast-iron rods wouldn't be up to 6,500 r.p.m. The big-bore 403 is an interesting idea. Heads might be a problem (Where's Joe Mondello (RIP) when you need him?)

I know 6,500 rpm is the limit, But I don't know if you HAVE to rev that high to compete??????

[BBR]

I thought claimers could have way more than the claimer price. You just had to be willing to let it go for $4k.

[38P]

I'm not sure i understand the whole claimer dealio - but I am always surprised at what the good Clevo guys can do with a relatively mild 351 or stroker (408ish) with stock aussie heads (2v ports, closed chambers but still BIG valves and ports compared to SBC)

Unfortunately you likely can't build a 5.0 liter coyote for $4000.

Yeah, you'd need FRPP to comp you the crate motor . . . . That's why the Mark VIII has some attractiveness. Lots of power on the table. 1.8 h.p./cube . . . not impossible.

Cleveland power is somewhat attractive, but there's going to be a lot of head work on a $4,000 budget.

[38P]

I would go with a 289 ford, with N351 heads. Heads sell for like $800 would leave room for good port work and valve train. Could use 302 mustang style intake for EFI.

Now I've got to go look up the flowbench numbers on the N heads. I seem to recall they were okay, but not stellar. I think (not sure) TFS has a long-runner EFI intake for the "Clevor" . . . that might make using Windsor heads unnecessary.

[38P]

I thought claimers could have way more than the claimer price. You just had to be willing to let it go for $4k.

Yep. The winner's probably going to spend a lot more (factoring in the monetary value of time, development testing, logistics, value of "parts just lying around," etc.)

[38P]

Good call on the DOHC 4.6 motor. I'd guess you could make great average power per cube with one for next to no money. I just seriously considered buying a mark VIII for $800 solid body bad air ride. Would have been an easy fix for suspension as tbird stuff bolts in. But I was not looking for a divorce........

I've always got my eyes peeled for cheap Mark VIII stuff . . . .

[milkovich]

the stock 6.0 block with ls3 heads should outperform the 408 with ls3 heads in hp/ci, well is there a rpm limit? all my ideas need revved. L92 heads may be better at that point.

All things being equal, the longer stroke with a relatively narrow bore (4.030). I think the quicker piston speeds in the stroker are going to add up to more low end. The LS3 and L92s are the same casting (821/823) but the LS3 is cheaper and has the lighter valves.

If you want to get really dirty, you could put a 3.90/4.00 stroke crank in a 5.3/4.8 block with some ported 243s. HP/inch would be good but the price would be great. Everything but the crankshaft would be pretty low buck.

The DOHC 5.4 would be an awesome bet. The Boss 390 or a navigator 5.4 would be nasty ... but keeping it under $4k???

[dieselgeek]

I've always got my eyes peeled for cheap Mark VIII stuff . . . .

You seem to know a lot about the Mark VIII motor. How would you go about building one that makes BIG torque down low, and shifts the powerband down to a peak before 6500rpm? These motors aren't typically torque monsters (until you put compressed air into them, then wow!!) but it would be kickass to show up with one that was at least a player.

[Beagle]

Let's assume that you were in a claimer class at the local racetrack. Anyone could buy your engine (less carb/fi and headers) for $4,000 and there is a guy at the track that has claimed engines before. Big block, small block doesn't matter. Domestic V8.

In order to win you need the most average horsepower and torque per cube and you redline at 6,500.

I don't think there is anything out there that would be better than an LSx. What's your opinion and why? Remember that cost is an issue.

Discuss

where's my starting point? 2500 RPM?